6 ms·

z Systems have always been amazing engineering feats. Too bad adopting it comes with a gargantuan amount of... IBM.

gosub100 2y ago
Yeah a few years ago there was a Talos (I think) desktop motherboard that had a POWER 8 cpu in it. It was expensive due to low production runs but I wish it had taken off. I think IBM is up to power 9 now, but I doubt if there are any personal motherboards for it.
- 9front 2y ago
  That's Raptor Computing Systems (www.raptorcs.com) now selling Talos II workstations.
- wmf 2y ago
  Being somewhat pedantic, Power and z are completely different architectures.
  - Pet_Ant 2y ago
    Completely? Isn't Z just microcoded on top of POWER under the hood?
    - formerly_proven 2y ago
      I dunno, but the z-processors and the POWER processors look a lot different even from a floor plan / die shot perspective. The former also clock much higher. Doesn't smell like microcode to me.
    - wmf 2y ago
      No, Power and Telum processors are very different internally.
    - classichasclass 2y ago
      No. The microarchitectures have some notable similarities and cross-pollinate each other, but they are distinct. You may be thinking of IBM i (formerly known as AS/400 and i5), which has a completely abstracted instruction set that on modern systems is internally recompiled to Power.
- Pet_Ant 2y ago
  > IBM is up to power 9 now, but I doubt if there are any personal motherboards for it. The Talos II: https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Talos_II https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Talos_II > EATX form factor > Two POWER9-compatible CPU sockets accepting 4-/8-/18- or 22-core Sforza CPUs "Entry" level is $5,800 USD. There won't be a POWER10 version from them because of proprietary bits required https://www.talospace.com/2023/10/the-next-raptor-openpower-systems-are.html https://www.talospace.com/2023/10/the-next-raptor-openpower-... > POWER10, however, contained closed firmware for the off-chip OMI DRAM bridge and on-chip PPE I/O processor, which meant that the principled team at Raptor resolutely said no to building POWER10 workstations, even though they wanted to. https://www.osnews.com/story/137555/ibm-hints-at-power11-hopefully-will-fix-power10s-firmware-mess/ https://www.osnews.com/story/137555/ibm-hints-at-power11-hop...
  - alchemist1e9 2y ago
    What are some of the reasons to buy or use these over Intel or AMD?
    - classichasclass 2y ago
      I bought mine - I own two Talos systems and a Blackbird - because I want choices in ISA, and if people want that, they'll need to spend the money. (It helps that I'm a notorious pro-PowerPC bigot, having used POWER since the RS/6000 MicroChannel days.) Other than ARM, they're the only architecture with both general OS support and processing power in the same ballpark, and while IBM may sometimes be dunderheaded, they aren't going anywhere, either. They aren't cheap and they aren't for everyone. But it meets my needs and it puts my money where my mouth is.
      - alchemist1e9 2y ago
        If I understand you correctly it means the primary use case is security applications that need transparency at all levels on a system that is roughly equivalent to mainstream platform performance features. Is that accurate?
tw04 2y ago
To be fair, AWS copied the concept of mainframe with x86 and "commodity" hardware, including the consumption based billing.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  They forgot to copy the 99.99999% availability. :-/

Yeah a few years ago there was a Talos (I think) desktop motherboard that had a POWER 8 cpu in it. It was expensive due to low production runs but I wish it had taken off. I think IBM is up to power 9 now, but I doubt if there are any personal motherboards for it.

9front 2y ago
That's Raptor Computing Systems (www.raptorcs.com) now selling Talos II workstations.
wmf 2y ago
Being somewhat pedantic, Power and z are completely different architectures.
- Pet_Ant 2y ago
  Completely? Isn't Z just microcoded on top of POWER under the hood?
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    I dunno, but the z-processors and the POWER processors look a lot different even from a floor plan / die shot perspective. The former also clock much higher. Doesn't smell like microcode to me.
  - wmf 2y ago
    No, Power and Telum processors are very different internally.
  - classichasclass 2y ago
    No. The microarchitectures have some notable similarities and cross-pollinate each other, but they are distinct. You may be thinking of IBM i (formerly known as AS/400 and i5), which has a completely abstracted instruction set that on modern systems is internally recompiled to Power.
Pet_Ant 2y ago
> IBM is up to power 9 now, but I doubt if there are any personal motherboards for it. The Talos II: https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Talos_II https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Talos_II > EATX form factor > Two POWER9-compatible CPU sockets accepting 4-/8-/18- or 22-core Sforza CPUs "Entry" level is $5,800 USD. There won't be a POWER10 version from them because of proprietary bits required https://www.talospace.com/2023/10/the-next-raptor-openpower-systems-are.html https://www.talospace.com/2023/10/the-next-raptor-openpower-... > POWER10, however, contained closed firmware for the off-chip OMI DRAM bridge and on-chip PPE I/O processor, which meant that the principled team at Raptor resolutely said no to building POWER10 workstations, even though they wanted to. https://www.osnews.com/story/137555/ibm-hints-at-power11-hopefully-will-fix-power10s-firmware-mess/ https://www.osnews.com/story/137555/ibm-hints-at-power11-hop...
- alchemist1e9 2y ago
  What are some of the reasons to buy or use these over Intel or AMD?
  - classichasclass 2y ago
    I bought mine - I own two Talos systems and a Blackbird - because I want choices in ISA, and if people want that, they'll need to spend the money. (It helps that I'm a notorious pro-PowerPC bigot, having used POWER since the RS/6000 MicroChannel days.) Other than ARM, they're the only architecture with both general OS support and processing power in the same ballpark, and while IBM may sometimes be dunderheaded, they aren't going anywhere, either. They aren't cheap and they aren't for everyone. But it meets my needs and it puts my money where my mouth is.
    - alchemist1e9 2y ago
      If I understand you correctly it means the primary use case is security applications that need transparency at all levels on a system that is roughly equivalent to mainstream platform performance features. Is that accurate?

tw04 2y ago

To be fair, AWS copied the concept of mainframe with x86 and "commodity" hardware, including the consumption based billing.

rbanffy 2y ago
They forgot to copy the 99.99999% availability. :-/