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Contempt for stable kernel data structures and APIs (and forget about any sort of kernel ABI) might make things easier for certain kernel developers, but it off

Contempt for stable kernel data structures and APIs (and forget about any sort of kernel ABI) might make things easier for certain kernel developers, but it offloads a constant maintenance burden onto many other people, such as eBPF, driver, and kernel extension developers. This sort of asymmetry is why system modules, and platforms in general, should absorb pain in order to benefit their many clients, rather than doing the opposite. Could be worse though - some platforms (cough, iOS) are happy to break user apps every year and offload a constant maintenance burden onto many thousands of app developers, when a more stable ABI would save developers (and users) billions of dollars in aggregate.

beng-nl 2y ago
In Linux’s defense, the userland abi is stable, which is no small feat in terms of absorbing pain in order to benefit their many users.. Not sure why the trade-off consideration led to a different outcome for in-kernel api’s, but given the work done to ensure the stability of the userland abi, I’m sure there is thought behind it..
- musicale 2y ago
  > userland abi is stable The system call interface per se is relatively stable. Then there's all that stuff that has been dumped into /proc...
- DSMan195276 2y ago
  Well from a certain POV it's like stabilizing APIs internal to your application - nobody else should be calling them so "stabilizing" them just creates unnecessary maintenance work. Obviously in practice certain things like eBPF or externally-maintained drivers can break this model, but then they don't really want people doing those things vs. merging code into the kernel.
- alexjplant 2y ago
  > In Linux’s defense, the userland abi is stable, which is no small feat in terms of absorbing pain in order to benefit their many users.. I understand that technically eBPF programs run on a VM in kernel space but aren't they loaded from userspace? Isn't eBPF an alternative to developing kernel modules and in-tree drivers? To a layperson like me it walks, talks, and quacks like userspace much more than the kernel. The fact that struct layout can change at the whim of kernel developers seems counterproductive. I guess this is what CO-RE is supposed to solve but having to deal with a bunch of pointer and sizeof() chicanery seems archaic (coming from a total luser/kernel nublet that hasn't written C in over a decade).
pjmlp 2y ago
Most do, the Linux kernel is the exception in the OS world.
Dylan16807 2y ago
Things were in flux for a while, but what don't you like about CORE+BTF as a stable ABI?

beng-nl 2y ago

In Linux’s defense, the userland abi is stable, which is no small feat in terms of absorbing pain in order to benefit their many users.. Not sure why the trade-off consideration led to a different outcome for in-kernel api’s, but given the work done to ensure the stability of the userland abi, I’m sure there is thought behind it..

musicale 2y ago
> userland abi is stable The system call interface per se is relatively stable. Then there's all that stuff that has been dumped into /proc...
DSMan195276 2y ago
Well from a certain POV it's like stabilizing APIs internal to your application - nobody else should be calling them so "stabilizing" them just creates unnecessary maintenance work. Obviously in practice certain things like eBPF or externally-maintained drivers can break this model, but then they don't really want people doing those things vs. merging code into the kernel.
alexjplant 2y ago
> In Linux’s defense, the userland abi is stable, which is no small feat in terms of absorbing pain in order to benefit their many users.. I understand that technically eBPF programs run on a VM in kernel space but aren't they loaded from userspace? Isn't eBPF an alternative to developing kernel modules and in-tree drivers? To a layperson like me it walks, talks, and quacks like userspace much more than the kernel. The fact that struct layout can change at the whim of kernel developers seems counterproductive. I guess this is what CO-RE is supposed to solve but having to deal with a bunch of pointer and sizeof() chicanery seems archaic (coming from a total luser/kernel nublet that hasn't written C in over a decade).

pjmlp 2y ago

Most do, the Linux kernel is the exception in the OS world.

Dylan16807 2y ago

Things were in flux for a while, but what don't you like about CORE+BTF as a stable ABI?