4 ms·

In distant times (before Microsoft's Satya era) I was the maintainer of a popular OSS product that scratched an important itch for specialist people who were do

by jxf 1y ago

In distant times (before Microsoft's Satya era) I was the maintainer of a popular OSS product that scratched an important itch for specialist people who were doing work in the early cloud days. It solved my own problems, and I didn't want to make a business out of it, so I was content to release it as OSS. A Microsoft director who ran a portfolio of product teams reached out to ask about a "collaboration". I said I'd be happy to send them my consulting agreement. There was a little grumbling about the rate but I just reiterated that it was my rate. After a lot of legal back and forth, they signed, I answered a bunch of questions for them in a 2-day workshop, and they paid. If they want you badly enough, they'll pay. Don't work for free.

mathattack 1y ago
And as you illustrated, for a one-off project, rate doesn't really matter. It just needs to get approved by someone senior enough, who will ask "Do we have anyone in-house that knows this?" and "How much will it cost to do all this ourselves?" If the answer to the first question is "No" then you'll be very cheap compared to the second answer no matter how much you cost.
- hinkley 1y ago
  Before the economy tanked the last time I was at a couple of places that still sent people to conventions. I took a notebook and went to a mix of talks about stuff I was interested in and stuff my company was interested in. I don’t think there has ever been a conference that cost more to send devs to than what we cost the company for a day, so having us out of the office is the most expensive part of the deal (maybe that’s why some conferences go into the weekend). I usually came back with enough notes to save me at least a couple of weeks of work. If you know how to listen, talking to an SME can save you a ton of time. And from what I understand Microsoft is good at planning interviews to sound like they’re extemporaneous while they’ve actually worked out ahead of time what questions they need to ask you to get what they want.
- vasco 1y ago
  Even just the salaried hourly rate of the people that work at the company that attend a 2 day workshop is already likely to be more than your megacorp rate. It doesn't matter to them, it's a rounding error to their initiative.
hypercube33 1y ago
This article and your comment reminds me of the story about winget/appget https://medium.com/@keivan/the-day-appget-died-e9a5c96c8b22 https://medium.com/@keivan/the-day-appget-died-e9a5c96c8b22 Note - maybe they don't pay you the developer sometimes, however.
- gscott 1y ago
  Steve Jobs and Winamp
- gnuly 1y ago
  [dead]
optymizer 1y ago
They want you to be intimidated by their reputation because it's easier if you make concessions first hoping to get some benefit later. Keep in mind, these are business people and they're very good at it (otherwise they wouldn't be giants). The benefit will never materialize. Working for free just means it was an easy win and you left money on the table. Do not work for free. Large companies have a shit ton of money. All you need to do is provide an economical argument in the form of your rate (which should take into account their expenses for having an employee / team work on it instead, hint: 2 x total compensation). Getting paid is just a matter of the guy who reached out to you to talk to his skip manager to get a verbal 'ok', and then the accounting department takes care of it. They're not going to pass on you just because you asked to be paid for your time - a business is used to paying for services. If they do pass on you without even negotiating your rate, then they were definitely not serious and nothing good would have come out of it for you. Source: dev working at FAANG with 3rd party companies.
- marcus_holmes 1y ago
  > these are business people and they're very good at it (otherwise they wouldn't be giants) just adding the point that the people who made them giants have all left by now, and the people they have now are incredibly good at internal politics rather than actual biz. You will probably find that they are more interested in how you can make them look good rather than how you can make their company money. But yes, do not work for free. Large companies have a shit ton of money. Agree 100% with parent.
burnte 1y ago
I worked for them for six months just to help them collaborate with Mozilla, about 20 years ago. They will absolutely pay.
qingcharles 1y ago
They definitely will open the checkbook pretty quick for small, well-defined projects like this. Stuff where they don't want to waste their internal resources; stuff that has an end game, like "build this complete widget and then go away."
leoqa 1y ago
I always tell this cautionary tale when talking to friends turned founders. I was going to a 1-1 with a Director (Bob) in a FANG company. As I was walking to his desk, another Director and a Senior Director (Gus) called out to him that the meeting was starting and he should join -- he asked me to come along and tell him my thoughts. It was a sales call with a 2-person tech company building some tools in the cloud native space. They were super eager, walking through the product. My manager put the phone on mute and asked "So what are we trying to do here" to the other directors. They replied "We just want to kick the tires to figure out how they built it, we're not going to buy". They let these guys pitch for 20 minutes, periodically asking questions and then muting to mock them. My manager nudged me to ask something, since I ran a similar initiative internally. I asked how they would handle a gnarly case we had and they didn't have a solution yet, but could come up with one (super eager, wanted the deal). At the end of the call, Gus un-muted the phone and said "This looks great but I'm having a hard time following the demo. Can you fly out and show us in person?". The sellers paused and then started asking when the other was free etc, one was going on vacation but could "make it work" to come out the next week. Gus replied "Great, see you next week". I left that meeting realizing they were all psychopaths. Notably, Gus had the charism of Gus Fring from Breaking Bad.
- spiritplumber 1y ago
  Did you eat any of these people and if not, why not?
- dickersnoodle 1y ago
  This happens at all levels of scale. Many years ago I was a PHP freelancer for a while and as often as not prospective "customers" would try to 20-question me out of the shape of a solution for them so they could avoid paying me.
joshdavham 1y ago
> There was a little grumbling about the rate but I just reiterated that it was my rate. Would you be willing to share what your rate was? I think it'd be useful for other FOSS maintainers to get a better understanding of their worth.
- sureIy 1y ago
  I'm curious as well, but simply to understand why Microsoft would even waste time discussing the rate for a 2-day workshop.
  - kazinator 1y ago
    I'm guessing that somebody pitched it to their superiors as a free solution with all the source code they could just take over and use, and now they had to have an awkward conversation about spending some money on the author. At which point it behooved them for it to at least be as cheap as possible.
    - cutemonster 1y ago
      jxf replied here about the rate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43761735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43761735
      - joshdavham 1y ago
        Wow! That is a lot more than I would've expected. Good for him!
kazinator 1y ago
They got a good deal; a ready-made solution (at least suitable for some real-world purposes similar to, if not quite theirs) for the price of 2 days of consulting.
interludead 1y ago
A good reminder that we're allowed to value our time and expertise, especially when dealing with companies that can pay but often hope you'll give it away for free in the name of "collaboration."
fabiensanglard 1y ago
> Don't work for free. I may encounter this situation some day. Could you share how you structured your fees (and give the hourly rate you charged them :P) ?
- jxf 1y ago
  There was no hourly rate. It was roughly US$125,000 in today's dollars for the 2-day workshop with some other riders (e.g. additional consultation rate). This factored in my prep time, prototyping, flights (since I didn't live in Redmond, where this team was headquartered, and this was before video calls were more popular), et cetera.

by jxf 1y ago

mathattack 1y ago

And as you illustrated, for a one-off project, rate doesn't really matter. It just needs to get approved by someone senior enough, who will ask "Do we have anyone in-house that knows this?" and "How much will it cost to do all this ourselves?" If the answer to the first question is "No" then you'll be very cheap compared to the second answer no matter how much you cost.

hinkley 1y ago
Before the economy tanked the last time I was at a couple of places that still sent people to conventions. I took a notebook and went to a mix of talks about stuff I was interested in and stuff my company was interested in. I don’t think there has ever been a conference that cost more to send devs to than what we cost the company for a day, so having us out of the office is the most expensive part of the deal (maybe that’s why some conferences go into the weekend). I usually came back with enough notes to save me at least a couple of weeks of work. If you know how to listen, talking to an SME can save you a ton of time. And from what I understand Microsoft is good at planning interviews to sound like they’re extemporaneous while they’ve actually worked out ahead of time what questions they need to ask you to get what they want.
vasco 1y ago
Even just the salaried hourly rate of the people that work at the company that attend a 2 day workshop is already likely to be more than your megacorp rate. It doesn't matter to them, it's a rounding error to their initiative.

hypercube33 1y ago

This article and your comment reminds me of the story about winget/appget https://medium.com/@keivan/the-day-appget-died-e9a5c96c8b22 https://medium.com/@keivan/the-day-appget-died-e9a5c96c8b22 Note - maybe they don't pay you the developer sometimes, however.

gscott 1y ago
Steve Jobs and Winamp
gnuly 1y ago
[dead]

optymizer 1y ago

They want you to be intimidated by their reputation because it's easier if you make concessions first hoping to get some benefit later. Keep in mind, these are business people and they're very good at it (otherwise they wouldn't be giants). The benefit will never materialize. Working for free just means it was an easy win and you left money on the table. Do not work for free. Large companies have a shit ton of money. All you need to do is provide an economical argument in the form of your rate (which should take into account their expenses for having an employee / team work on it instead, hint: 2 x total compensation). Getting paid is just a matter of the guy who reached out to you to talk to his skip manager to get a verbal 'ok', and then the accounting department takes care of it. They're not going to pass on you just because you asked to be paid for your time - a business is used to paying for services. If they do pass on you without even negotiating your rate, then they were definitely not serious and nothing good would have come out of it for you. Source: dev working at FAANG with 3rd party companies.

marcus_holmes 1y ago
> these are business people and they're very good at it (otherwise they wouldn't be giants) just adding the point that the people who made them giants have all left by now, and the people they have now are incredibly good at internal politics rather than actual biz. You will probably find that they are more interested in how you can make them look good rather than how you can make their company money. But yes, do not work for free. Large companies have a shit ton of money. Agree 100% with parent.

burnte 1y ago

I worked for them for six months just to help them collaborate with Mozilla, about 20 years ago. They will absolutely pay.

qingcharles 1y ago

They definitely will open the checkbook pretty quick for small, well-defined projects like this. Stuff where they don't want to waste their internal resources; stuff that has an end game, like "build this complete widget and then go away."

leoqa 1y ago

I always tell this cautionary tale when talking to friends turned founders. I was going to a 1-1 with a Director (Bob) in a FANG company. As I was walking to his desk, another Director and a Senior Director (Gus) called out to him that the meeting was starting and he should join -- he asked me to come along and tell him my thoughts. It was a sales call with a 2-person tech company building some tools in the cloud native space. They were super eager, walking through the product. My manager put the phone on mute and asked "So what are we trying to do here" to the other directors. They replied "We just want to kick the tires to figure out how they built it, we're not going to buy". They let these guys pitch for 20 minutes, periodically asking questions and then muting to mock them. My manager nudged me to ask something, since I ran a similar initiative internally. I asked how they would handle a gnarly case we had and they didn't have a solution yet, but could come up with one (super eager, wanted the deal). At the end of the call, Gus un-muted the phone and said "This looks great but I'm having a hard time following the demo. Can you fly out and show us in person?". The sellers paused and then started asking when the other was free etc, one was going on vacation but could "make it work" to come out the next week. Gus replied "Great, see you next week". I left that meeting realizing they were all psychopaths. Notably, Gus had the charism of Gus Fring from Breaking Bad.

spiritplumber 1y ago
Did you eat any of these people and if not, why not?
dickersnoodle 1y ago
This happens at all levels of scale. Many years ago I was a PHP freelancer for a while and as often as not prospective "customers" would try to 20-question me out of the shape of a solution for them so they could avoid paying me.

joshdavham 1y ago

> There was a little grumbling about the rate but I just reiterated that it was my rate. Would you be willing to share what your rate was? I think it'd be useful for other FOSS maintainers to get a better understanding of their worth.

sureIy 1y ago
I'm curious as well, but simply to understand why Microsoft would even waste time discussing the rate for a 2-day workshop.
- kazinator 1y ago
  I'm guessing that somebody pitched it to their superiors as a free solution with all the source code they could just take over and use, and now they had to have an awkward conversation about spending some money on the author. At which point it behooved them for it to at least be as cheap as possible.
  - cutemonster 1y ago
    jxf replied here about the rate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43761735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43761735
    - joshdavham 1y ago
      Wow! That is a lot more than I would've expected. Good for him!

kazinator 1y ago

They got a good deal; a ready-made solution (at least suitable for some real-world purposes similar to, if not quite theirs) for the price of 2 days of consulting.

interludead 1y ago

A good reminder that we're allowed to value our time and expertise, especially when dealing with companies that can pay but often hope you'll give it away for free in the name of "collaboration."

fabiensanglard 1y ago

> Don't work for free. I may encounter this situation some day. Could you share how you structured your fees (and give the hourly rate you charged them :P) ?

jxf 1y ago
There was no hourly rate. It was roughly US$125,000 in today's dollars for the 2-day workshop with some other riders (e.g. additional consultation rate). This factored in my prep time, prototyping, flights (since I didn't live in Redmond, where this team was headquartered, and this was before video calls were more popular), et cetera.