5 ms·

It’s important to note that The Two Popes was a drama, and not a true factual story. It fictionalizes and sensationalizes some details; and that’s ok because i

by gortok 1y ago

It’s important to note that The Two Popes was a drama, and not a true factual story. It fictionalizes and sensationalizes some details; and that’s ok because its purpose is to make you feel exactly the way you feel about it. Pope Francis was a wonderful steward of Christianity and espoused the virtues that anyone would want to see in their religious leaders: humility, grace, an openness to listen and a strong voice against even prelates in his own church that are xenophobic or nationalistic. He wanted us to welcome all and to live as the bible said Jesus did. The fear I have is that each swing of the pendulum goes in two directions. He was far more “liberal” than the conservative Catholic prelates of the USCCB, and I fear his actions — including rightfully limiting the Latin mass, will force the church to swing in the other direction and give in to the illiberal forces that divide us.

keepamovin 1y ago
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. - John 14:27
ralfd 1y ago
> including rightfully limiting the Latin mass Why is that a political thing though? The mass of the roman church was for centuries (almost all it’s history?) in latin.
- gortok 1y ago
  Indeed; and when the Second Vatican Council decided Mass should be said in the vernacular, the obligation of the Church was to follow. Instead, the conservatives of the church ('conservative' here means those that emphasize adhering to tradition and are adverse to change) created a rift by eschewing this change and even heightening the importance of the Latin Mass, creating the impression that a mass spoken in the local language was somehow less of a mass. If you’re Catholic, suggesting that a mass spoken in one language over another is somehow "less" takes away from the most important idea of the Mass: reenacting Christ’s Last supper commandment and the institution of the Holy Eucharist for what amounts to word games. This divisive description of the mass increased over the decades, to the point that it threatened to cause a schism. As such it was the Holy Father’s duty to resolve the issue.
  - gambiting 1y ago
    There are still groups(at least I'm aware of them in Poland, I've met people who are part of them) who believe exactly this, that the second Vatican Sobor was a mistake and the "real" mass is only the one conducted in Latin.
    - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
      It seems unlikely that Jesus spoke Latin at the last supper.
      - slowmovintarget 1y ago
        Also unlikely that Jesus intended for the ceremony to be conducted at times other than the evening of his death (replacing Passover). Up for interpretation, I suppose.
        michaelsbradley 1y ago
        As in just the one time? Or as a once per year replacement?
        slowmovintarget 1y ago
        Once per year. He commanded his disciples to "do this in remembrance of me." There is no mention of how often, but given Jesus allergy to ritual as opposed to genuine acts of worship, it seems reasonable that this would not be a commonplace thing. Again... interpretation.
        michaelsbradley 1y ago
        We can get context for how the early Christians understood it by looking to additional sources from that period, e.g. the Didache and the early Church Fathers. https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/holy-eucharist-in-the-early-fathers-24203 https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/holy-eucharist-in-t...
- tptacek 1y ago
  It's complicated. Few people in the church, including the priests themselves, are fluent in Latin (there's a story told, I think by Francis himself, about an diocese in England that required priests to pass an exam to give a Traditional Latin Mass, and almost none of the requesting priests could pass). The TLM obscures what the mass is about, which creates space for practitioners to substitute in their own things, which, as it happens, tends to be idiosyncratically ultra-conservative stuff. The church is a top-down institution, and the TLM gets in the way of that and divides it. (I like Latin! Took it in high school, reading Lingua Latina for fun; I think the TLM is neat. But problematic.)
  - pcwalton 1y ago
    For fun, try searching YouTube for "speaking latin at the vatican". It's hard to find people who can speak it even there!
    - ithkuil 1y ago
      sed invenire potes ibi scorpiōnem martianum
  - michaelsbradley 1y ago
    > The TLM obscures what the mass is about… Well, opinions and all that… My experience, and that of many of my fellow TLM goers that I’ve heard or read, is that we treasure solemn reverent worship that helps us focus on the Eucharistic sacrifice. If we were being distracted from “what the mass is about”, we’d take ourselves and our children elsewhere. Here’s a video of yesterday’s Easter Sunday Mass offered by priests of the same religious order that operates the oratory where I attend Mass: https://www.youtube.com/live/XshPZzdI0zk https://www.youtube.com/live/XshPZzdI0zk If you get an opportunity, maybe attend Mass one Sunday at a location of the ICKSP or the FSSP. I believe you’ll experience a welcoming community of Catholics passionate about Jesus.
    - tptacek 1y ago
      I'd rather not get snark for putting my Christmas tree up the first week of December. My nearest TLM is at an SSPX chapel.
- MisterBastahrd 1y ago
  Imagine going to church every Saturday or Sunday and sitting through a 1 hour service that you don't understand. The conservative side of the church has decided that it hates change, and since the Latin services were mostly cast aside, that's a bad thing to them.
  - michaelsbradley 1y ago
    Understanding the Mass and uniting in prayer with the Eucharistic sacrifice are one thing, being fluent in Latin is another thing. One does not necessarily imply or require or constrain the other.
  - philsnow 1y ago
    The dozen or so TLMs I've ever been to have had their readings in the vernacular. All the other parts are either the same every time (or have only a few variations) or are propers (specific to each day). I never studied Latin, but I don't find it difficult at all to keep up. A lot of churches that have TLM have the missal booklet with Latin on one page and vernacular on the facing page. While I do appreciate the richness of the daily propers and miss understanding them, it doesn't bother me enough to avoid the TLM.
  - mvieira38 1y ago
    Modern catholics and protestants are the exception in regards to "understanding" their rites. For centuries religions have maintained "sacred languages" or at the very least sacred dialects, with the intention of emphasizing continuity between generations. Also, you don't really seem to understand how the Latin Mass works. The Ordo is repeated the same way every mass, so anyone that remotely cares knows what it says. The proper, including the readings, changes most days, but many are repeated throughout the year, like the mass of the virgins, and also repeats every year in the exact same way, so there's no reason for a concerned faithful not to buy a book with them if they care so much. Readings are frequently read in vernacular before the sermon, if pertinent, but they are not core to the mass so there's not much reason to care

by gortok 1y ago

keepamovin 1y ago

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. - John 14:27

ralfd 1y ago

> including rightfully limiting the Latin mass Why is that a political thing though? The mass of the roman church was for centuries (almost all it’s history?) in latin.

gortok 1y ago
Indeed; and when the Second Vatican Council decided Mass should be said in the vernacular, the obligation of the Church was to follow. Instead, the conservatives of the church ('conservative' here means those that emphasize adhering to tradition and are adverse to change) created a rift by eschewing this change and even heightening the importance of the Latin Mass, creating the impression that a mass spoken in the local language was somehow less of a mass. If you’re Catholic, suggesting that a mass spoken in one language over another is somehow "less" takes away from the most important idea of the Mass: reenacting Christ’s Last supper commandment and the institution of the Holy Eucharist for what amounts to word games. This divisive description of the mass increased over the decades, to the point that it threatened to cause a schism. As such it was the Holy Father’s duty to resolve the issue.
- gambiting 1y ago
  There are still groups(at least I'm aware of them in Poland, I've met people who are part of them) who believe exactly this, that the second Vatican Sobor was a mistake and the "real" mass is only the one conducted in Latin.
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
    It seems unlikely that Jesus spoke Latin at the last supper.
    - slowmovintarget 1y ago
      Also unlikely that Jesus intended for the ceremony to be conducted at times other than the evening of his death (replacing Passover). Up for interpretation, I suppose.
      - michaelsbradley 1y ago
        As in just the one time? Or as a once per year replacement?
        slowmovintarget 1y ago
        Once per year. He commanded his disciples to "do this in remembrance of me." There is no mention of how often, but given Jesus allergy to ritual as opposed to genuine acts of worship, it seems reasonable that this would not be a commonplace thing. Again... interpretation.
        michaelsbradley 1y ago
        We can get context for how the early Christians understood it by looking to additional sources from that period, e.g. the Didache and the early Church Fathers. https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/holy-eucharist-in-the-early-fathers-24203 https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/holy-eucharist-in-t...
tptacek 1y ago
It's complicated. Few people in the church, including the priests themselves, are fluent in Latin (there's a story told, I think by Francis himself, about an diocese in England that required priests to pass an exam to give a Traditional Latin Mass, and almost none of the requesting priests could pass). The TLM obscures what the mass is about, which creates space for practitioners to substitute in their own things, which, as it happens, tends to be idiosyncratically ultra-conservative stuff. The church is a top-down institution, and the TLM gets in the way of that and divides it. (I like Latin! Took it in high school, reading Lingua Latina for fun; I think the TLM is neat. But problematic.)
- pcwalton 1y ago
  For fun, try searching YouTube for "speaking latin at the vatican". It's hard to find people who can speak it even there!
  - ithkuil 1y ago
    sed invenire potes ibi scorpiōnem martianum
- michaelsbradley 1y ago
  > The TLM obscures what the mass is about… Well, opinions and all that… My experience, and that of many of my fellow TLM goers that I’ve heard or read, is that we treasure solemn reverent worship that helps us focus on the Eucharistic sacrifice. If we were being distracted from “what the mass is about”, we’d take ourselves and our children elsewhere. Here’s a video of yesterday’s Easter Sunday Mass offered by priests of the same religious order that operates the oratory where I attend Mass: https://www.youtube.com/live/XshPZzdI0zk https://www.youtube.com/live/XshPZzdI0zk If you get an opportunity, maybe attend Mass one Sunday at a location of the ICKSP or the FSSP. I believe you’ll experience a welcoming community of Catholics passionate about Jesus.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    I'd rather not get snark for putting my Christmas tree up the first week of December. My nearest TLM is at an SSPX chapel.
MisterBastahrd 1y ago
Imagine going to church every Saturday or Sunday and sitting through a 1 hour service that you don't understand. The conservative side of the church has decided that it hates change, and since the Latin services were mostly cast aside, that's a bad thing to them.
- michaelsbradley 1y ago
  Understanding the Mass and uniting in prayer with the Eucharistic sacrifice are one thing, being fluent in Latin is another thing. One does not necessarily imply or require or constrain the other.
- philsnow 1y ago
  The dozen or so TLMs I've ever been to have had their readings in the vernacular. All the other parts are either the same every time (or have only a few variations) or are propers (specific to each day). I never studied Latin, but I don't find it difficult at all to keep up. A lot of churches that have TLM have the missal booklet with Latin on one page and vernacular on the facing page. While I do appreciate the richness of the daily propers and miss understanding them, it doesn't bother me enough to avoid the TLM.
- mvieira38 1y ago
  Modern catholics and protestants are the exception in regards to "understanding" their rites. For centuries religions have maintained "sacred languages" or at the very least sacred dialects, with the intention of emphasizing continuity between generations. Also, you don't really seem to understand how the Latin Mass works. The Ordo is repeated the same way every mass, so anyone that remotely cares knows what it says. The proper, including the readings, changes most days, but many are repeated throughout the year, like the mass of the virgins, and also repeats every year in the exact same way, so there's no reason for a concerned faithful not to buy a book with them if they care so much. Readings are frequently read in vernacular before the sermon, if pertinent, but they are not core to the mass so there's not much reason to care