4 ms·

I think he will be mostly remembered as a terrible politician, first alienating conservatives with progressive policy and then alienating liberals with very que

I think he will be mostly remembered as a terrible politician, first alienating conservatives with progressive policy and then alienating liberals with very questionable opinions on war in Ukraine. In the end, nobody was really happy with him. On the other hand, he definitely had a will and a spine to stick to his own opinions - I guess that counts for something.

matusp 1y ago
I don't think that US conservatives and liberals are were the center of gravity of papal policy is.
- d3ckard 1y ago
  US doesn’t have a monopoly on those words and I am not even American.
pyfon 1y ago
A good politician is a people pleaser?
- dredmorbius 1y ago
  A comment I'd heard some time back concerned a politician. The speaker (not a politician themselves, but recalling an interaction with one) had said to the politician something like "I suppose you want to win with the biggest majority possible". The politician responded along the lines of, "No, that would mean I wasn't doing my job; if I'm really pushing the limits of the possible I'll have just the barest majority." People pleasing in politics means never pushing out of the public's comfort zone. (And no, this isn't an endorsement of any current orange head of state, far from it.)
- d3ckard 1y ago
  A good politician is able to garner support to enact change.
deletedie 1y ago
How very Christ-like
- d3ckard 1y ago
  Yeah, nothing says Jesus like siding with the aggressor due to your own prejudices.
  - code_for_monkey 1y ago
    Jesus famously said turn the other cheek
    - d3ckard 1y ago
      You can’t turn your other cheek when you’re dead, so I am pretty sure he didn’t mean it as allow yourself to get killed. Besides, Ukraine did turn other cheek after 2014 war, they just run out of cheeks to turn. Back to main subject, I believe nothing weakened Pope Francis’s policies as much as his widely misunderstood position on this subject.
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        > he didn’t mean it as allow yourself to get killed. You know, what happened on Easter right?
        d3ckard 1y ago
        I do, according to christian doctrine Jesus sacrificed himself for humanity’s sins. That sacrifice wouldn’t be particularly meaningful if it came with expectation for everybody to follow through. As much as I am not a fan of this (or any other) religion, I’m pretty sure it’s not a suicide pact.
        1718627440 1y ago
        I think getting killed for your belief is exactly what Jesus was arguing for. It was also what all apostles did and the only cause for the next 300 years to be declared a saint. Jesus' death was special, because he was without sins, he was the son of God (YMMV) and, because was walking around afterwards physically (i.e. capable of touching and eating, etc.) on earth. I am not sure, why you name it suicide, because he didn't killed himself, he got himself killed. I do not think, that Jesus would defend "the agressor". But fighting in return is also not good, which is where "turning the other cheek" comes into play.
basisword 1y ago
>> In the end, nobody was really happy with him. This is true if you live in a bubble. Most Catholics don't hold strong opinions on the Pope. The people who do are, as usual, the extremes on either side - not the majority.
- d3ckard 1y ago
  Not holding a strong opinion counts as not being happy with him, otherwise you would have a strong positive opinion of him.
code_for_monkey 1y ago
[flagged]
- d3ckard 1y ago
  Of course I am happily criticising pope from back seat, this thread is literally to discuss him as a public figure. Already said that conservative and liberal are English words not necessarily connected to US political scene. I know plenty of people initially supportive of him who got seriously pissed when he broke the long standing tradition of supporting the attacked, not the attacker. I would argue it’s a pretty common position in Europe.
- azan_ 1y ago
  > I dont know anyone whos mad at him over Ukraine either, thats extremely minor. I know a lot of people that are mad at him over that, it's extremely major.

matusp 1y ago

I don't think that US conservatives and liberals are were the center of gravity of papal policy is.

d3ckard 1y ago
US doesn’t have a monopoly on those words and I am not even American.

pyfon 1y ago

A good politician is a people pleaser?

dredmorbius 1y ago
A comment I'd heard some time back concerned a politician. The speaker (not a politician themselves, but recalling an interaction with one) had said to the politician something like "I suppose you want to win with the biggest majority possible". The politician responded along the lines of, "No, that would mean I wasn't doing my job; if I'm really pushing the limits of the possible I'll have just the barest majority." People pleasing in politics means never pushing out of the public's comfort zone. (And no, this isn't an endorsement of any current orange head of state, far from it.)
d3ckard 1y ago
A good politician is able to garner support to enact change.

deletedie 1y ago

How very Christ-like

d3ckard 1y ago
Yeah, nothing says Jesus like siding with the aggressor due to your own prejudices.
- code_for_monkey 1y ago
  Jesus famously said turn the other cheek
  - d3ckard 1y ago
    You can’t turn your other cheek when you’re dead, so I am pretty sure he didn’t mean it as allow yourself to get killed. Besides, Ukraine did turn other cheek after 2014 war, they just run out of cheeks to turn. Back to main subject, I believe nothing weakened Pope Francis’s policies as much as his widely misunderstood position on this subject.
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      > he didn’t mean it as allow yourself to get killed. You know, what happened on Easter right?
      - d3ckard 1y ago
        I do, according to christian doctrine Jesus sacrificed himself for humanity’s sins. That sacrifice wouldn’t be particularly meaningful if it came with expectation for everybody to follow through. As much as I am not a fan of this (or any other) religion, I’m pretty sure it’s not a suicide pact.
        1718627440 1y ago
        I think getting killed for your belief is exactly what Jesus was arguing for. It was also what all apostles did and the only cause for the next 300 years to be declared a saint. Jesus' death was special, because he was without sins, he was the son of God (YMMV) and, because was walking around afterwards physically (i.e. capable of touching and eating, etc.) on earth. I am not sure, why you name it suicide, because he didn't killed himself, he got himself killed. I do not think, that Jesus would defend "the agressor". But fighting in return is also not good, which is where "turning the other cheek" comes into play.

basisword 1y ago

>> In the end, nobody was really happy with him. This is true if you live in a bubble. Most Catholics don't hold strong opinions on the Pope. The people who do are, as usual, the extremes on either side - not the majority.

d3ckard 1y ago
Not holding a strong opinion counts as not being happy with him, otherwise you would have a strong positive opinion of him.

code_for_monkey 1y ago

[flagged]

d3ckard 1y ago
Of course I am happily criticising pope from back seat, this thread is literally to discuss him as a public figure. Already said that conservative and liberal are English words not necessarily connected to US political scene. I know plenty of people initially supportive of him who got seriously pissed when he broke the long standing tradition of supporting the attacked, not the attacker. I would argue it’s a pretty common position in Europe.
azan_ 1y ago
> I dont know anyone whos mad at him over Ukraine either, thats extremely minor. I know a lot of people that are mad at him over that, it's extremely major.