6 ms·

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do somethi

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

milesrout 2y ago
They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones. And yes practicing will result in them getting better.
- ilt 2y ago
  I think this is the crux. Nobody likes to fail, kids included. And their attention span is wonky too so they may not see much value in learning from failure/s since there are so many other attractive things asking for their attention and they would rather do them.
- cpursley 2y ago
  Insane you’re getting downvoted, this 100% and then some. There’s a clear difference in outcomes between kids taught self-discipline and those who are raised standard Anglo-American ADHD style once they become adults.
- mrob 2y ago
  The primary design goal for most traditional instruments was making them as loud as possible. I was briefly made to play violin as a child, and I definitely hated it (fortunately my parents recognized this and didn't push too hard). The reason is in retrospect obvious: violins are loud and piercing and played close to the ear. Nobody considered hearing protection back then. I learned recorder as an adult and the loud notes can exceed 100dB(A) measured at the ear (both alto and soprano recorders, and recorders have very limited dynamics). Violins seem to be at least as loud. I would hate to play without hearing protection no matter how skilled I become. Even in instruments where you can more easily play softly like a piano, the design for loudness can cause suffering. Pianos are much bigger than they need to be now that we have amplification, with correspondingly wide and finger-straining keys. Steel string guitars are louder than nylon but hurt more to play (and even nylon can hurt depending on your individual hand size and shape). I expect there are many children suffering hand/finger pain from being forced to play various instruments and genuinely hating it regardless of their skill level. When a child hates something, there's often a good reason for it that isn't obvious and that they don't have the communication skills to explain.
  - milesrout 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mrob 2y ago
      I never said it was painful for everybody to play instruments. I'm saying this is an underappreciated reason for children to hate playing. Maybe you are lucky enough that it doesn't affect you. And I personally measured my recorders with an SPL meter and found them to reach over 100dB(A) at the ear (played indoors in an ordinary room with furniture but without acoustic treatment). The meter used does not have a traceable calibration but in all respects behaves as I would expect a correctly calibrated meter to behave. I have no reason to believe it is miscalibrated. Recorders are only quiet in the bass. The high notes require much higher air pressure and can be very loud. Perhaps you are fooled by the lack of distortion. I played without hearing protection at first, but I was disturbed by the prolonged discomfort this caused in my ears. I then recorded my playing and reproduced it with loudspeakers. I was shocked at how loud I had to turn the speakers up to reach a realistic level. I think it's easier to judge SPL from loudspeakers because they do have distortion which serves as a perceptual cue. Pure sounds can reach dangerous levels without sounding obviously loud. I also think the fact that I was playing the instrument myself and not just listening contributed to my misjudgement.
      - Izkata 2y ago
        > I'm saying this is an underappreciated reason for children to hate playing. I once shocked my mom by clearly hearing what she whispered from across a quiet room. And not like a room in a home, this room was about the width of a house. I think people massively underestimate how sensitive hearing can be for some people.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
blitzar 2y ago
> they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate A valuable life skill if you want to ever have a job or get paid.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  That’s such a depressing way to see things. I’m sure most people do something they don’t utterly despise, is only because they select for their local optimum.
  - blitzar 2y ago
    > I’m sure most people If you live in the bubble where you experience this, congratulation you live a wonderfully privileged life, never interact with anyone or are totally oblivious to the experiences of all the people you interact with on a daily basis.
    - tasuki 2y ago
      You're of course right, it's a privilege. But also, many people choose to do something they hate so they earn more money. They could be just as privileged and choose not to, just so they can compete with the Joneses and consume more...
    - danenania 2y ago
      So your parenting advice is to teach your kids to do things they hate while suppressing their feelings so they can be like the average unhappy person?
      - zdragnar 2y ago
        I hate doing laundry and cleaning dishes. I still do it, though. There are things in life that you won't enjoy but you need to do. Learning to do them anyway is in fact a life skill. I've seen people follow their dreams into careers they chose because they wanted them, despite those careers not being paid well. They're all at least as miserable as the average person, because what they enjoyed is now work, and they don't have money for anything they now enjoy. "Do whatever makes you happy" is a life plan for the financially independent. Most people simply don't have that luxury.
tetris11 2y ago
Yep, 6 years of being forced to play the violin. Sure, once I was playing it, I was fine, but I cannot explain to you the sheer dread I felt opening up the case. Have not played in decades, despite all those lessons and concerts and orchestra sessions.
- ctxc 2y ago
  I felt the same. I didn't touch it for ~9 years. But I'm glad for it, since it lets me jam or enjoy myself without having to put the practice in now from scratch. I do it for fun.
  - tetris11 2y ago
    I live in the hope that one day I will pick it up and feel nothing but contentment of being in the moment, but I'm just not ready for that yet. Even the smell of tree resin sometimes makes my stomach tighten with anxiety.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  Executive function / demand avoidance. Not to the point of being pathological, but it is a learned emotional behavioral complex.
ctxc 2y ago
"something they absolutely hate" is learning to read sheet music, training for skill, practicing for muscle memory. The fruits are reaped when they (me!) get older. Like I mentioned in another comment, I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim. Those are not things I necessarily wanted to do when I was a kid. But the "forced" practice was required as a foundation to do what I want to today.
- djeastm 2y ago
  > I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim You can do any of those things without learning to read music. Ask me how I know
  - khazhoux 2y ago
    Let me guess, you self taught on some instrument?
    - alganet 2y ago
      That seems like a simplistic conclusion. He could have learned to play from a teacher that doesn't teach reading music, for example.

milesrout 2y ago

They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones. And yes practicing will result in them getting better.

ilt 2y ago
I think this is the crux. Nobody likes to fail, kids included. And their attention span is wonky too so they may not see much value in learning from failure/s since there are so many other attractive things asking for their attention and they would rather do them.
cpursley 2y ago
Insane you’re getting downvoted, this 100% and then some. There’s a clear difference in outcomes between kids taught self-discipline and those who are raised standard Anglo-American ADHD style once they become adults.
mrob 2y ago
The primary design goal for most traditional instruments was making them as loud as possible. I was briefly made to play violin as a child, and I definitely hated it (fortunately my parents recognized this and didn't push too hard). The reason is in retrospect obvious: violins are loud and piercing and played close to the ear. Nobody considered hearing protection back then. I learned recorder as an adult and the loud notes can exceed 100dB(A) measured at the ear (both alto and soprano recorders, and recorders have very limited dynamics). Violins seem to be at least as loud. I would hate to play without hearing protection no matter how skilled I become. Even in instruments where you can more easily play softly like a piano, the design for loudness can cause suffering. Pianos are much bigger than they need to be now that we have amplification, with correspondingly wide and finger-straining keys. Steel string guitars are louder than nylon but hurt more to play (and even nylon can hurt depending on your individual hand size and shape). I expect there are many children suffering hand/finger pain from being forced to play various instruments and genuinely hating it regardless of their skill level. When a child hates something, there's often a good reason for it that isn't obvious and that they don't have the communication skills to explain.
- milesrout 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mrob 2y ago
    I never said it was painful for everybody to play instruments. I'm saying this is an underappreciated reason for children to hate playing. Maybe you are lucky enough that it doesn't affect you. And I personally measured my recorders with an SPL meter and found them to reach over 100dB(A) at the ear (played indoors in an ordinary room with furniture but without acoustic treatment). The meter used does not have a traceable calibration but in all respects behaves as I would expect a correctly calibrated meter to behave. I have no reason to believe it is miscalibrated. Recorders are only quiet in the bass. The high notes require much higher air pressure and can be very loud. Perhaps you are fooled by the lack of distortion. I played without hearing protection at first, but I was disturbed by the prolonged discomfort this caused in my ears. I then recorded my playing and reproduced it with loudspeakers. I was shocked at how loud I had to turn the speakers up to reach a realistic level. I think it's easier to judge SPL from loudspeakers because they do have distortion which serves as a perceptual cue. Pure sounds can reach dangerous levels without sounding obviously loud. I also think the fact that I was playing the instrument myself and not just listening contributed to my misjudgement.
    - Izkata 2y ago
      > I'm saying this is an underappreciated reason for children to hate playing. I once shocked my mom by clearly hearing what she whispered from across a quiet room. And not like a room in a home, this room was about the width of a house. I think people massively underestimate how sensitive hearing can be for some people.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

blitzar 2y ago

> they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate A valuable life skill if you want to ever have a job or get paid.

Aeolun 2y ago
That’s such a depressing way to see things. I’m sure most people do something they don’t utterly despise, is only because they select for their local optimum.
- blitzar 2y ago
  > I’m sure most people If you live in the bubble where you experience this, congratulation you live a wonderfully privileged life, never interact with anyone or are totally oblivious to the experiences of all the people you interact with on a daily basis.
  - tasuki 2y ago
    You're of course right, it's a privilege. But also, many people choose to do something they hate so they earn more money. They could be just as privileged and choose not to, just so they can compete with the Joneses and consume more...
  - danenania 2y ago
    So your parenting advice is to teach your kids to do things they hate while suppressing their feelings so they can be like the average unhappy person?
    - zdragnar 2y ago
      I hate doing laundry and cleaning dishes. I still do it, though. There are things in life that you won't enjoy but you need to do. Learning to do them anyway is in fact a life skill. I've seen people follow their dreams into careers they chose because they wanted them, despite those careers not being paid well. They're all at least as miserable as the average person, because what they enjoyed is now work, and they don't have money for anything they now enjoy. "Do whatever makes you happy" is a life plan for the financially independent. Most people simply don't have that luxury.

tetris11 2y ago

Yep, 6 years of being forced to play the violin. Sure, once I was playing it, I was fine, but I cannot explain to you the sheer dread I felt opening up the case. Have not played in decades, despite all those lessons and concerts and orchestra sessions.

ctxc 2y ago
I felt the same. I didn't touch it for ~9 years. But I'm glad for it, since it lets me jam or enjoy myself without having to put the practice in now from scratch. I do it for fun.
- tetris11 2y ago
  I live in the hope that one day I will pick it up and feel nothing but contentment of being in the moment, but I'm just not ready for that yet. Even the smell of tree resin sometimes makes my stomach tighten with anxiety.
zdragnar 2y ago
Executive function / demand avoidance. Not to the point of being pathological, but it is a learned emotional behavioral complex.

ctxc 2y ago

"something they absolutely hate" is learning to read sheet music, training for skill, practicing for muscle memory. The fruits are reaped when they (me!) get older. Like I mentioned in another comment, I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim. Those are not things I necessarily wanted to do when I was a kid. But the "forced" practice was required as a foundation to do what I want to today.

djeastm 2y ago
> I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim You can do any of those things without learning to read music. Ask me how I know
- khazhoux 2y ago
  Let me guess, you self taught on some instrument?
  - alganet 2y ago
    That seems like a simplistic conclusion. He could have learned to play from a teacher that doesn't teach reading music, for example.