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Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, lea

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will stop after 1 year and conclude they are not good at music. Same for sport. Same for reading books. Same for maths. And you know what? It's your fault. You chose to be lazy and complacent and didn't push them because it's hard to be a good parent. And now you expect me to validate your laziness? Nah.

lukan 1y ago
Different point of view: do you consider hunting in the wilderness to be difficult? I do, it requires being still in miserable conditions for a long time, being cold, wet, mosquitos, and then usually still no success, but frustration. But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it. "children sense your true passions and naturally want to join in" And that is my experience as well. But if you stop childrens curiosity out of limited time and patience "Be quite now!" - stop them from helping, because they are not a help in the beginning and you are faster on your own - then of course they won't just start enthusiastically some years later doing with motivation whatever it is, you define as their arbitary target now.
- jblecanard 1y ago
  There is a huge difference between pushing your kids to overcome their current limits and forcing them to do something they do not enjoy at all.
  - lukan 1y ago
    There is indeed a difference between giving a slight push and "forcing" which is what TFA is talking about.
- guerrilla 1y ago
  > But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it Uhh then your knowledge is very limited because that is rather well documented. Also, why are you saying "savage" like an 18th century racist? Is that in fashion again?
  - lukan 1y ago
    Oh, I am obviously a racist, by glorifying indigineous teaching methods. But otherwise can you show, where this is documented? The natives tribes where I have some knowledge, don't force their kids to learn in the sense that is talked about here. No need to - the whole culture is about becoming a good hunter (for male individuals). So indeed lots of peer pressure, but no individual forcing.
    - margalabargala 1y ago
      > Oh, I am obviously a racist, by glorifying indigineous teaching methods. No, by calling people "savages", a pejorative, based on their ethnicity. Much like how it would be racist to call people "enslavers" based on their ethnicity, or "cotton pickers" based on their ethnicity.
      - lukan 1y ago
        Erm, english is not my first language, but I believe, savage stands for uncivilised person. So exactly what I wanted to talk about, when referencing "natural education". I did not talk about any ethnicity at all.
        guerrilla 1y ago
        It's considered super racist but also awkwardly old fashioned anyway even if it weren't just the former.
        lukan 1y ago
        Ok, seriously. I did not talk about any ethnicity at all. How exactly can I made a racist statement here? Or were you simply trying to say, for you the term "savage" is strongly connected to racists and therefore inappropriate to use?
- gyomu 1y ago
  Kids tend to want to partake of their own initiative in activities that are 1) physical, and 2) that they see adults themselves do. Hunting in wilderness is a good example; so are sports, cooking, crafts, etc. But unfortunately not all important activities that kids need to learn to become well adjusted adults in our modern societies fit those 2 criteria. Point 2) can be hacked to an extent by modeling the behavior yourself - eg kids who see adults read books are more likely to want to read themselves.
  - t0bia_s 1y ago
    Or staring to smartphone. Then, suddenly, we are surprised why our kids do same.
- deleted 1y ago
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seethedeaduu 1y ago
Oh yeah let's turn otherwise fun hobbies into a forced chore, that will surely be great for the kid. Forcing kids to learn to spell when they have learning difficulties (eg dyslexia) doesn't usually go well either it's just causing suffering for the kid.
- sssilver 1y ago
  The problem is that it’s extremely difficult for any activity like math, music, or drawing to compete with Minecraft and YouTube shorts.
  - Viliam1234 1y ago
    Kinda yes, but there are some solutions. I think the most important part is to start early. Make your kids interested in math, music, art, and sport, before they start school. Doesn't have to be anything sophisticated, simple addition and puzzles will do for math, etc. Then you have something you can later build on. There are also ways to make things funny, including math. Most people say that they hate math, but then they do Sudoku. So, try to make more math like this. Not all math can be transformed to funny puzzles, but after a few the kids will get positive associations with the subject, and will be more willing to learn more.
- cardanome 1y ago
  The problem in this discussion is that people here seem to miss that both an excessively authoritarian parenting style is bad but also going full liberal and just letting them run wild is not the solution. Sometimes children need guidance an a gentle push. Even as a adult I sometimes need to get pushed. I sometimes take guided courses so I don't skip over the hard but important parts of learning a new thing. Just don't push your children too hard or you do more harm than good. Accept that they are not you and have different interests and needs. Like make them practice an instrument but give them a choice which one. And if after a few years they still hate it, well you tried. Maybe it is not for them.
  - annerxox 1y ago
paganel 1y ago
The world needs less Asian kids being forced to play piano since a very early age and it needs more kids (Asian and not only) that are left to explore the world. Without that exploration the kids won't make the world their world, at best they'd only make it a bad approximation of what we, our (older) generation, best think that that world should be.
- eastbound 1y ago
  Any proof of why it is best? I prefer to live among educated people, thank you. I prefer my peers to go through forced history lessons, forced math lessons so they don’t tank my government, and biology lessons so they don’t tank the health system. Yes they won’t be able to determine their gender, but that will give me grandkids, thank you very much. Same goes for piano or sports. Yes we need to pull people upwards, otherwise we’ll all become fat americans.
  - paganel 1y ago
    Because "forced history lessons" doesn't help said kids understand what history really is about, it just helps them accumulate facts, if that. I'd say the same thing applies to math, where one can't really start understanding math until said kid is already an adolescent (unless they're a young Euler or something), so it always baffles me when I see parents filling their young kids with (fancy) arithmetics, most probably making said kids future therapy patients, all the while lauding themselves (the parents do, that is) that they're teaching their kids "maths". Related, one of the best maths teachers I've had (this was back in high-school, in the mid-90s) was very quick to point out that we should forget almost all "maths" we had learned in elementary school, and the he very soon started to explain to us the definition of the real numbers. Or maybe this is just an Eastern-European thing, who knows? Maybe further West they do confuse arithmetics with maths until the Uni' years.
    - cpursley 1y ago
      You’ve got it backwards: the future therapy patients are kids who are not taught discipline and persistence. Those who aren’t struggle as adults as the real world is harsh on vibe based living. Also, all those “useless facts” eventually build up on each other. They are prerequisites of knowledge and mastery.
tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)
- milesrout 1y ago
  They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones. And yes practicing will result in them getting better.
  - ilt 1y ago
    I think this is the crux. Nobody likes to fail, kids included. And their attention span is wonky too so they may not see much value in learning from failure/s since there are so many other attractive things asking for their attention and they would rather do them.
  - cpursley 1y ago
    Insane you’re getting downvoted, this 100% and then some. There’s a clear difference in outcomes between kids taught self-discipline and those who are raised standard Anglo-American ADHD style once they become adults.
  - mrob 1y ago
    The primary design goal for most traditional instruments was making them as loud as possible. I was briefly made to play violin as a child, and I definitely hated it (fortunately my parents recognized this and didn't push too hard). The reason is in retrospect obvious: violins are loud and piercing and played close to the ear. Nobody considered hearing protection back then. I learned recorder as an adult and the loud notes can exceed 100dB(A) measured at the ear (both alto and soprano recorders, and recorders have very limited dynamics). Violins seem to be at least as loud. I would hate to play without hearing protection no matter how skilled I become. Even in instruments where you can more easily play softly like a piano, the design for loudness can cause suffering. Pianos are much bigger than they need to be now that we have amplification, with correspondingly wide and finger-straining keys. Steel string guitars are louder than nylon but hurt more to play (and even nylon can hurt depending on your individual hand size and shape). I expect there are many children suffering hand/finger pain from being forced to play various instruments and genuinely hating it regardless of their skill level. When a child hates something, there's often a good reason for it that isn't obvious and that they don't have the communication skills to explain.
openplatypus 1y ago
> The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Such a bold claim coming from some who does not share their credentials on the matter. My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting. My sample of 1 contradicts your claim, but neither of us are experts on the matter.
- Jensson 1y ago
  > My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting Difficult things aren't interesting locally, you have to practice boring things in order to do interesting things in difficult subjects. Some kids do practice boring things if you just ask them, but most do not.
  - Garlef 1y ago
    I think you're very very wrong. Especially in maths, there's not much to practice. There's stuff to understand. And while this might be exhausting it's not boring and it's a very rewarding process in itself. Or programming... What's there to practice? Really. I'd like an example of something that's boring. My impression is that if you follow the path of discovery and applying things in context, there's nothing that's really boring.
- ohgr 1y ago
  Sample size 3 here and they are all adults and all STEM grads. You have to push them, but push them right. That's a combination of coercion and encouragement and helping them avoid procrastination. There are hills to climb and they need helping over them to where the good stuff is. I remember my eldest crying over ratios at the dining table. Then algebra at the kitchen table. Then crying again at real analysis in the pub with me. She graduated with a first in the end.
  - djeastm 1y ago
    I'd be interested to hear what she has to say about the experience
sysrestartusr 1y ago
The important part is to start as early as possible and absolutely not trust the school/teacher or kindergarden staff. They are badly programmed to reinforce kids in what comes easy to them and stop encouraging them after less than a handful of attempts. If you have to restart later, no matter at which point, even up into 'the kids' 20s ( ultra late bloomers, slackers, kids disgusted by most people for reason Z, drug- or "condition X"-induced deadbeats, repressed kids with and without ADHD, failed or successful attempts by psycho-social environments ) understand three things: 1) you are not pushing, even if you are, you are demanding sth for the sake of your child AND yourself. YOU WANT THIS first and foremost. It's not a bad thing, fuck what the little fucker wants. It's imperative for the kid to know that YOU WANT THIS no matter the obstacles. You want to see the process and result. It's a form of accountability, I guess. Kids pushing back is some dumb implicit way to check how important THEY and THE THING really are to you _or someone else_ (that counts for the ugly stuff, too). It's part of our evolutionary, hard-coded OODA loop. 2) just start at the very beginning, so that it's easy, almost effortless. The kid will be annoyed on most of the difficulty increases, it always depends on the sub-topic so don't back down. Even 20 year olds will catch up with their successful piers within some time. Neuro-genesis is awesome. Most 'grown up' stuff is child's play and a matter of baseline-human character anyway. 3) your stress level is what matters. Stay cool, be equanimous, serene, check your posture, voice, tone, the discussion won't last 5 min and will be worth it. Absolutely force your kids to do math.
snaige 1y ago
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deleted 1y ago
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kleene_op 1y ago
That was exactly my sentiment. My parents pushed me hard to do piano when I was around 10-12. After a year that went pretty well I was starting to get lazy and put very little work and investment into preparing for the next lesson. They still had me play piano a full year until they eventually gave up and bitterly told me what a waste my resignation felt to them. 20 years later, I got back to playing piano, and I can't thank my parent enough for having me to continue playing in my teenage years. Because it only took me a few month to be able to play pretty advanced piano sheets compared to some of my relatives who are struggling with the basics starting it in their adulthood. Same for maths. I feel that a lot of people like the author of this blog post are being extremely misdirected thinking math can and should be taught in a fun or amusing manner every time. Sure, a lot of topics in Maths can be made more digestible by "gameification" to help younglings develop an intuition. But a very big part of Maths actually requires you to sit down and painstakingly crunch down the numbers/equations, memorize and learn when to apply the correct methods to solve some problems. And even though this part can feel fun and engaging after a while, you can't expect children to exhibit such interest right of the bat without having them first struggle with the classics. Kids don't know better. Your role as a parent is to navigate along the fine line of forcing your kid to get good exposure to the (boring) activities we adults value and letting him enjoy what he enjoys. Only in doing that will your kid open up to the world and grow up into a functional human being.
- kstenerud 1y ago
  My parents forced me to play piano, right up until I told them that I'll destroy our piano if they don't lay off, and any consequences they could think of would not stop me (I was normally an obedient child, but enough was enough). That got their attention. 30 years later I picked up classical guitar and loved it! Do I thank my parents for forcing the piano on me? Hell no.
  - hilbert42 1y ago
    Your experience is the antithesis of mine, I wonder why people are so different.
  - cpursley 1y ago
maccard 1y ago
I don’t have kids. The really important part of this is that kids mimic what they see adults they like and respect doing. If their role models spend 6+ hours in front of the television every night, that’s what they’ll do. If their role models are playing music or sport, that’s what they’ll want to do.
- Viliam1234 1y ago
  Yes, but one of the problems with our civilization is that we typically do the important stuff out of our children's sight, and then come home tired and try to relax. So they do not naturally get a correct idea of what we do.
  - tasuki 1y ago
    Yes. Due to an unfortunate event, I'm a single father. My life improved dramatically when I started doing all the chores while the kid was awake: - We do the chores together. - Yes it takes ages, but I need to kill the time anyway. - Then she falls asleep and I can relax. This is literal heaven, compared to when I played with her the whole day and then did the chores when she slept...
  - maccard 1y ago
    I don’t disagree with you. Parenting is hard, and some of the job is being a role model. If you show your kids the only way to relax is to beg in front of Netflix that’s what they’ll see. One of the nicest things I see on a weekday evening bfis kids with their parents at the driving range - it’s clearly 0 break for the parent, but the kids are usually having a great time doing what mom/dad like doing.
- khazhoux 1y ago
  You are incorrect, kids don’t necessarily mimic their parents’ interests..
Aeolun 1y ago
So now you have a kid that’s really good at playing piano but absolutely hates doing so. Mission accomplished?
rerdavies 1y ago
The really important thing is to teach kids to find their joy. At the end of my second year of piano lessons, my teacher took me into her living room, and we listened to Glen Miller records for most of the hour. And then we had a cup of tea, and she told me, "this is the music that I love. I play piano because I love that music, and I want to be able to play it myself. What kind of music do you like?" I didn't really have an answer. So she told me that we should stop doing lessons, but once I found music that I loved, she'd be happy to teach me how to play it. In my early teens, I discovered Miles Davis. Once I had found my passion, all the hard work became play. I actually ended up learning to play jazz guitar, not piano. Even the heavy lifting was pure joy, because it had purpose and meaning. I didn't become great at mathematics until I discovered the joy in mathematics (another brilliant teacher handed me a stack of old math contests, and said here, you might find these fun. I placed 4th among 20,000 students). I didn't learn to write well until I discovered the joy in writings. (An absolutely brilliant English teacher who made us assign ourselves our own grades, but broke his promise in the end by upgrading all my papers to A+'s). And I gave my kids the room to find their joy as well.
- Loic 1y ago
  But kids are going to have setbacks, they will reach a plateau in their craft (music, painting, art, sport, ...). You need also as a good parent to help your kids go through, to not give up, because even joy to do is not always enough. This is the hard part. From my modest experience of being a ski/snowboard instructor and trying to raise 3 boys (now 12, 16 and 18).
  - bethekidyouwant 1y ago
    why does a child need to break through a plateau at anything? Of my five sample size of five, expose them and support them, some things can’t even hook you until your brain grows enough .. The musical one is in a band now the nerdy one likes inhaling solder. I did force both boys to Hockey but just to have passable skills so that he can enjoy that all that comes with the sport as an adult
    - 1y ago
pyfon 1y ago
My take is Maths, Science and English push. Everything else let them decide what they like. Do parents push kids at every damn subject?
- onetom 1y ago
  I think everything else like, drawing, singing, gardening, exercise, meditation could all use a bit more pushing...
t0bia_s 1y ago
Do you do things because someone force you or beacuse you have self motivation?
- hnthrow90348765 1y ago
  As an adult, you develop the agency to force yourself to do things you don't like doing I can tell you as someone who was never forced into any extracurricular activities and was forced to go to church-schools that you probably should force your kids to learn something well (and not send them to religious schools)
  - t0bia_s 1y ago
    You are not forced. You do stuffs you dont like because you racionally evaluate consequences that could probably not worth it if you don't do it. Why cannot we approach same attitude when raising kids?
- CivBase 1y ago
  I spend at least 40 hr a week doing something I have no motivation for. Most people do. Even if you don't hate your job, would you actually do it if you weren't getting paid?
  - t0bia_s 1y ago
    Do you find it healthy? Doing stuffs that you hate? Isn't that a consequence of forced education system?
    - CivBase 1y ago
      Healthy in what sense? I wouldn't describe my job as "healthy activity". But I also wouldn't describe it as "unhealthy" and it enables me to enjoy a higher quality of life. Nobody's forcing me to work. I could quit today if I wanted. But I doubt that would be beneficial to my overall health, given I do not have the wealth required to support myself and my family for very long.
dandanua 1y ago
> Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. I guess it's true for adult humans, and other creatures as well. Instead of pushing, however, you should consider using other motivational methods (a simple prize for accomplishing something that you want from your kids works very well). Pushing can cause alienation and hate, which could affect their entire adult life.
- cpursley 1y ago
  It’s amazing how far the promise of a sticker or special treat will go for young ones.
- martindbp 1y ago
  I think many adults don't push themselves because they were always pushed by others their entire lives. It's a form of learned helplessness. You never have a say in what to do, so you just do what you're told, nothing more.
martindbp 1y ago
Many kids will do difficult stuff, just not the stuff you'd have in mind. Sometimes parents are right in what the kids should be focusing on, but I'd guess more than not they are wrong. For example, all the parents who discouraged heavy computer use or video games, when this is how most millennials came into programming and IT. Then there's the thing where a kid who is interested, obsessed even, learns SO much faster. I recall a story of a parent who wanted their child checked for learning disabilities and the psychologist exclaimed "Your son has memorized 350 Pokemon! It's not a question of learning ability, it's a question of motivation". In my view, if we let our children do what interests them, to some degree (of course anything taken to the extreme will likely fail, and it depends on the child), they are likely to cover way more territory, and probably more useful territory, than a child that is being forced and coerced. One of the many things my 7 year old has learned from Minecraft is an entire language (English), to a level which in the past (my generation) we didn't reach before perhaps 18 (and that was due to watching TV, not school). The other day I caught him taking notes on a piece of paper that said single = 1, double = 2, triple = 3, quadruple = 4, quintuple = 5, sextuple = 6. This is a child who should not be speaking English, but now he can write and spell it better than his native language, because we let him follow his passion. He's also learned a ton of engineering concepts and vocabulary, and has the ability to install mods, debug when they don't work, has a basic understanding of networking, IP addresses and on and on. He has no interest in playing an instrument right now, why should we force him? If the time comes and he wants to, he will learn it so much faster because he wants to get better.
kif 1y ago
I’m not a parent myself, but something I’ve seen happen with an American family I know, is that they push their kids way too much to learn and do as many things as possible. They have their music lessons, their many clubs at school, several physical activities such as soccer, tennis, taekwondo. At some point you have to stop and wonder whether you’re taking their childhood away. These kids barely have any free time. School during weekdays, activities during the weekend… worse than a full time job. I think there’s a balance to be struck. Your kids don’t need to be good at everything.
- electriclove 1y ago
  Definitely agree though the alternative can quickly become all day spent on TikTok or YouTube shorts.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
    This. I have several people with kids similar age as mine in my circle, who seemingly gave up and now its all phone, pad or tv at all times. It is very easy to lose that kid to other distractions unless you provide enough of a structure for them.
- hkpack 1y ago
  Every parent is fighting an uphill battle against the technology now. You either structure the day in such a way that there is literally no time for anything outside of activities, or you just observe the kid gets sucked into the screens with less and less will to do anything else.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    That is a false dichotomy. If not at a club/activity, why does the child have unrestricted access to screens?
    - hkpack 1y ago
      Have you personally tried to keep a teen away from a screen? If you did with a success, I would really like to hear your story and what has worked for you. Looking at my kids friends / classmates, almost all of the parents just gave up, with the exception of a small group that is still trying with the discussed approach.
zerr 1y ago
Why not anxiety instead of laziness?
alphazard 1y ago
This kind of forced practice can create the appearance of a certain level of competence, but it rarely produces a deep understanding or innate appreciation of any of those subjects. Take music, for example. Many high schoolers play an instrument as part of the college admissions game. Almost none of those kids can play music with their friends and just enjoy it. To them music is this structured activity where they get paper with dots on it, and they have to play the right notes at the right time to pass the class. These kids never develop a true understanding or appreciation for music. They don't keep their instruments or practice as adults. There's so many things to learn to be good at, why not find something that you actually like?
- tstrimple 1y ago
  This is one of the reasons I'm really happy that my daughter found show choir. Choir sucks. My kids hated it. I hated going to watch it. Bunch of terrible old songs that no one knows. Now she's singing and dancing to pop songs and show tunes on the stage and it's far more engaging for her. I do think it also helps that show choir is a tryout based program so the floor for interest and talent is far higher than with the regular choir.
timcobb 1y ago
> A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it This may be true, but explain to me what are the returns you get on forcing math (or anything) on kids? They won't like it, they won't learn it intimately, the won't internalize it, it'll be unusable knowledge and mostly a waste of time with lots of bad vibes and probably even a little trauma... I spent a lot of time with math in high school and college but that was because I had a couple teachers who really elucidated why *I* might find math to be interesting (in my case, it was physics and computing). Forcing people to do anything generally leads to nothing worthwhile.
apwell23 1y ago
what does it mean to "push" ? they used to beat the living shit out of us india when were growing up. is that what you mean?
doright 1y ago
Double-edged sword IMO. I was mandated to a half hour of piano practice early on, and I came to dread it. But in my experience that was less having to do with being pushed to practice, and more I loathed my parents overhearing my piano playing and thinking they'd come down and criticize me for not trying hard enough. This was an uncommon occurrence, but it occurred enough to plant the seeds of anxiety in my mind. The nature of pushing needs to be considered in the sense of the overall parent-child relationship, and not just being handed a Mikrokosmos and an egg timer. If my parents were more proud of my ability to push forward and took interest in the piano and my playing beyond just performing good at recitals, I probably would have grown up to truly enjoy performing music. Today I'm left with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth that would require conceited effort to overcome. So I guess my parents weren't "lazy" in your terms but a bit too strict for me to conclude I would be "good at music" that early.
tom89999 1y ago
But should the parent decide if the kid will become a musician? What if its not talented and pushing it with force to mechanically play Mozart? I later became interested in playing bass guitar, nobody forced me. I did it for leisure. Children are and will not be experts in all fields. Sure you are right that some discipline is needed to move forward and to keep up with something. Do you remember and use everything you ever learned in school, if its not needed for your current job? Kids nowadays spent half to 3/4 of the day in school or outside their own home. When should they be kids? I understand the pressure of parents to make sure they have good grades, some is necessary, but not really all of it. I never learned touch type in school. I did that on my own after work within half a year. I did it because i was interested in. Worked 20 years in IT. Now i am currently trying to get my amateur radio license, i use my knowledge that i collected so far, allthough i was bad at math in school. Life is a journey, i got three professions so far.
ForOldHack 1y ago
At first I am reluctant to agree. But I decided to take math and English every year. I sucked at math, and had to figure out how to get good on my own. Now I have a degree. Math and music go hand in hand. I hated the music I was learning, so I quit lessons, and got the music I wanted to learn and struggled to learn it and I got muh better. I am an avid reader. I reluctantly admit that you are right, and I am the better for it because I overcame my lazyness and found joy, in math, English, reading, and music. I sing, play piano, guitar, and listen with appreciation.
hdjjhhvvhga 1y ago
> Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. I roughly classify parents in two groups: (1) like the author of the article, (2) like you. Based on my limited observation, neither can be claimed to give optimal results, and it more boils down to "see what actually works for your kid in the long term" which unfortunately far too often can only be definitely said in hindsight.
trod1234 1y ago
Its not a good take because no alternative is provided, but the author does notice something important that 99% of other people don't notice today. They don't realize it explicitly, but the actions do recognize it implicitly. The school system today uses elements, structures, and clusters, the same techniques used in real torture. Its embedded into the structure of by-rote pedagogy starting in the late 1970s, and it also goes by another name starting in the 90s, where Administrators, NEA representatives, and Teachers, call this "Lying to Children". Most parents today seem to be simply too busy, treating school like daycare, or maybe they just don't love their children enough to put the time in to protect them and figure out what is actually happening to their kids. Classic curricula followed the western philosophy of the greeks, you develop tools that let you reduce a working system to first principles (in guided manner), which are proven true, and then you use those principles to model the system accurate, and then predict the future parts of that system. "Lying to Children" does the exact opposite in time. It starts with a flawed model that is useless teaching abstract concepts and includes other unrelated concepts that arise naturally from that flawed model. The student is then as mastery progresses forced to struggle to unlearn material that isn't correct, and then relearn the finer details with each new flawed model given in a progressive fashion, over, and over, and over, becoming more useful yes, but torturing themselves, and in a way destroying themselves in the process. When questions or true insights occur, the flawed model breaks those insights requiring you to do things differently in earlier classes before you can use those, but not even this information is given so you can't leap frog the torture. There are additional strategic structures that orchestrate failures to gatekeep technical fields like math. There is an Algebra->Geometry->Trigonometry sequence which uses a gimmick in undisclosed pass criteria between class 1 and class 3, so the student passes initially but then fails and has to go back to Algebra, but can't because its sequential. Its called burning the bridge. Regardless, the student is blamed, no help is given (because there is no cure for torture). They are told, "maybe you're just not a math person, you should choose a career that doesn't use this if your having trouble. This gatekeeper is orchestrated to induce PTSD towards math in general, and as all technical fields require math this prevents them from entering those fields. Some are able to pass and enter these professions, but never the best and brightest, only the most compliant with blinders. The exception to this is if you bypassed the entire process through private boarding school, and Ivy league college straightaway. If your an elite, you get a decent education. These structures follow a false ideology based in gnosis/gnosticism which is long refuted, but that hasn't stopped these things from being used for purpose, or allowed others to remove these. There is an all out war that has been happening for years, a war on our children. Compare low attention spans and other things with the documented characteristics of torture from PoWs and you'll see there are parallels everywhere. The thousand yard stare. Hollowed out feelings. Lashing out. These are often referenced in the material on torture. The problem is unlike adults, once broken and distorted by torture children carry that forward their entire lives, unable to change because its not learning, its torture, and there are very few who ever recover. Failing to see the reality of what is happening and calling it lazy and complacent without understanding is problematic and most definitely not the sign of a good parent if that means you let your children's minds be destroyed under a false belief that its just laziness. For those parents that are unaware of what I mean by torture. You can read books on the subject matter by Joost Meerloo, or Robert Lifton. From the case studies you can derive the requirements and you would be shocked to find and recognize these things being used everywhere today without you knowing. Robert Cialdini touches on the psychological blindspots used which bypass your and your children's perception to the issue. The elements are isolation, cognitive dissonance, coercion with real or perceived loss, and lack of agency to remove oneself from the situation. Some would argue this also includes time and exposure. Structuring and Clustering, forces active engagement through specially designed circular trauma loops, forcing the psyche back on itself to destroy itself, and narco-synthesis and narco-analysis which in the 50s used barbituates to trigger dopamine are used today through associative priming through many ways including your phone (gamification uses many of these things learned from research on torture). It is established that those who are drugged have less resistance to torture, and those with faith-based beliefs tend to resist torture better. One of the first things to go under torture is rational thought.
swat535 1y ago
I think there's also a significant cultural dimension to this discussion. For example, in many Middle Eastern and Asian cultures (pardon my generalization here), there's an ingrained expectation that children should be pushed, often quite hard, especially in areas like mathematics, science, engineering, and law. Hence the old cliche: "You have three career options: doctor, lawyer, or engineer.". I've seen this firsthand as a Middle Easterner (I was born in IRAN). My father is an engineer, and both my parents were relentless when it came to academic discipline. I ended up in computer science, and my brother became a pharmaceutical researcher after obtaining his PHD.. There's no question that this kind of structure and pressure produced tangible results. But I'd be lying if I said it was an easy or joyful process. It ended up costing me plenty of social anxieties and now I struggle with social dynamics. That said, I have mixed feelings about it. While the rigor pays off in terms of career and technical competence, it often comes at the cost of creativity, intrinsic motivation, and the space to explore things like literature, music, and the arts. I sometimes wonder what paths we might have followed if exploration had been valued as highly as performance. So I _partially_ agree with you that some degree of external motivation is necessary, especially with children who haven't yet developed discipline. But I also think we should be careful not to frame this solely as a matter of "lazy" vs. "good" parenting. Upon reflection, I think that there's a balance between encouragement, discipline, and allowing for the development of intrinsic interest. Different families, cultures, and even individual children may need to strike this in different ways.
vel0city 1y ago
I agree. I got frustrated a lot being forced to practice the piano as a child. Not a long practice, just like you mentioned, about 20 minutes a few days a week and an hour lesson every other week or so with someone in the neighborhood. I look back at the memories very fondly now. As a pre-teen I got invited to play at my cousin's wedding and everyone still talks about it. It gave me a good foundation and I performed well in highschool band and small ensembles. I now play my instruments for my kids and it brings us all a lot of joy. Both of my parents weren't especially musical. I'm not amazing or anything, but I've got enough skill to hear a tune from a show or someplace and play it at home for my kids reasonably enough. But I wouldn't be able to if my mom didn't make me practice.
tshaddox 1y ago
How do you know that the conclusion you’re drawing from your experience raising kids is correct? There are alternative conclusions that sound like they match your experience, such as “most kids won’t do difficult things that don’t interest them if you don’t push them.”
jalapenos 1y ago
Just on this, do you factor in that maybe they don't practice the piano because they aren't interested in it, and that's fine because it has no practical utility? I.e. in contrast with things like spelling, which do. Also in your opinion at what age should pushing start, and how much pushing per age group?
- khazhoux 1y ago
  There is little practical utility in most subjects.
dustbunny 1y ago
Every kid that I know who was forced to do their 20 minutes of piano a day now doesn't play piano and can only play with sheet music in front of them. They can't improvise, they seem to take no joy in the music. I was the kid who wanted a keyboard and guitar but didn't get one until I could afford one in my twenties, then I learned just enough to be able to be creative. People say I'm good at piano but technically I suck, I'm just creative and expressive with limited tools. It's an interesting phenomenon, the adults who are technically great at piano, but can't play anything without it being written in sheet music.

lukan 1y ago

Different point of view: do you consider hunting in the wilderness to be difficult? I do, it requires being still in miserable conditions for a long time, being cold, wet, mosquitos, and then usually still no success, but frustration. But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it. "children sense your true passions and naturally want to join in" And that is my experience as well. But if you stop childrens curiosity out of limited time and patience "Be quite now!" - stop them from helping, because they are not a help in the beginning and you are faster on your own - then of course they won't just start enthusiastically some years later doing with motivation whatever it is, you define as their arbitary target now.

jblecanard 1y ago
There is a huge difference between pushing your kids to overcome their current limits and forcing them to do something they do not enjoy at all.
- lukan 1y ago
  There is indeed a difference between giving a slight push and "forcing" which is what TFA is talking about.
guerrilla 1y ago
> But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it Uhh then your knowledge is very limited because that is rather well documented. Also, why are you saying "savage" like an 18th century racist? Is that in fashion again?
- lukan 1y ago
  Oh, I am obviously a racist, by glorifying indigineous teaching methods. But otherwise can you show, where this is documented? The natives tribes where I have some knowledge, don't force their kids to learn in the sense that is talked about here. No need to - the whole culture is about becoming a good hunter (for male individuals). So indeed lots of peer pressure, but no individual forcing.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    > Oh, I am obviously a racist, by glorifying indigineous teaching methods. No, by calling people "savages", a pejorative, based on their ethnicity. Much like how it would be racist to call people "enslavers" based on their ethnicity, or "cotton pickers" based on their ethnicity.
    - lukan 1y ago
      Erm, english is not my first language, but I believe, savage stands for uncivilised person. So exactly what I wanted to talk about, when referencing "natural education". I did not talk about any ethnicity at all.
      - guerrilla 1y ago
        It's considered super racist but also awkwardly old fashioned anyway even if it weren't just the former.
        lukan 1y ago
        Ok, seriously. I did not talk about any ethnicity at all. How exactly can I made a racist statement here? Or were you simply trying to say, for you the term "savage" is strongly connected to racists and therefore inappropriate to use?
gyomu 1y ago
Kids tend to want to partake of their own initiative in activities that are 1) physical, and 2) that they see adults themselves do. Hunting in wilderness is a good example; so are sports, cooking, crafts, etc. But unfortunately not all important activities that kids need to learn to become well adjusted adults in our modern societies fit those 2 criteria. Point 2) can be hacked to an extent by modeling the behavior yourself - eg kids who see adults read books are more likely to want to read themselves.
- t0bia_s 1y ago
  Or staring to smartphone. Then, suddenly, we are surprised why our kids do same.
deleted 1y ago
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seethedeaduu 1y ago

Oh yeah let's turn otherwise fun hobbies into a forced chore, that will surely be great for the kid. Forcing kids to learn to spell when they have learning difficulties (eg dyslexia) doesn't usually go well either it's just causing suffering for the kid.

sssilver 1y ago
The problem is that it’s extremely difficult for any activity like math, music, or drawing to compete with Minecraft and YouTube shorts.
- Viliam1234 1y ago
  Kinda yes, but there are some solutions. I think the most important part is to start early. Make your kids interested in math, music, art, and sport, before they start school. Doesn't have to be anything sophisticated, simple addition and puzzles will do for math, etc. Then you have something you can later build on. There are also ways to make things funny, including math. Most people say that they hate math, but then they do Sudoku. So, try to make more math like this. Not all math can be transformed to funny puzzles, but after a few the kids will get positive associations with the subject, and will be more willing to learn more.
cardanome 1y ago
The problem in this discussion is that people here seem to miss that both an excessively authoritarian parenting style is bad but also going full liberal and just letting them run wild is not the solution. Sometimes children need guidance an a gentle push. Even as a adult I sometimes need to get pushed. I sometimes take guided courses so I don't skip over the hard but important parts of learning a new thing. Just don't push your children too hard or you do more harm than good. Accept that they are not you and have different interests and needs. Like make them practice an instrument but give them a choice which one. And if after a few years they still hate it, well you tried. Maybe it is not for them.
- annerxox 1y ago

paganel 1y ago

The world needs less Asian kids being forced to play piano since a very early age and it needs more kids (Asian and not only) that are left to explore the world. Without that exploration the kids won't make the world their world, at best they'd only make it a bad approximation of what we, our (older) generation, best think that that world should be.

eastbound 1y ago
Any proof of why it is best? I prefer to live among educated people, thank you. I prefer my peers to go through forced history lessons, forced math lessons so they don’t tank my government, and biology lessons so they don’t tank the health system. Yes they won’t be able to determine their gender, but that will give me grandkids, thank you very much. Same goes for piano or sports. Yes we need to pull people upwards, otherwise we’ll all become fat americans.
- paganel 1y ago
  Because "forced history lessons" doesn't help said kids understand what history really is about, it just helps them accumulate facts, if that. I'd say the same thing applies to math, where one can't really start understanding math until said kid is already an adolescent (unless they're a young Euler or something), so it always baffles me when I see parents filling their young kids with (fancy) arithmetics, most probably making said kids future therapy patients, all the while lauding themselves (the parents do, that is) that they're teaching their kids "maths". Related, one of the best maths teachers I've had (this was back in high-school, in the mid-90s) was very quick to point out that we should forget almost all "maths" we had learned in elementary school, and the he very soon started to explain to us the definition of the real numbers. Or maybe this is just an Eastern-European thing, who knows? Maybe further West they do confuse arithmetics with maths until the Uni' years.
  - cpursley 1y ago
    You’ve got it backwards: the future therapy patients are kids who are not taught discipline and persistence. Those who aren’t struggle as adults as the real world is harsh on vibe based living. Also, all those “useless facts” eventually build up on each other. They are prerequisites of knowledge and mastery.

tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

milesrout 1y ago
They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones. And yes practicing will result in them getting better.
- ilt 1y ago
  I think this is the crux. Nobody likes to fail, kids included. And their attention span is wonky too so they may not see much value in learning from failure/s since there are so many other attractive things asking for their attention and they would rather do them.
- cpursley 1y ago
  Insane you’re getting downvoted, this 100% and then some. There’s a clear difference in outcomes between kids taught self-discipline and those who are raised standard Anglo-American ADHD style once they become adults.
- mrob 1y ago
  The primary design goal for most traditional instruments was making them as loud as possible. I was briefly made to play violin as a child, and I definitely hated it (fortunately my parents recognized this and didn't push too hard). The reason is in retrospect obvious: violins are loud and piercing and played close to the ear. Nobody considered hearing protection back then. I learned recorder as an adult and the loud notes can exceed 100dB(A) measured at the ear (both alto and soprano recorders, and recorders have very limited dynamics). Violins seem to be at least as loud. I would hate to play without hearing protection no matter how skilled I become. Even in instruments where you can more easily play softly like a piano, the design for loudness can cause suffering. Pianos are much bigger than they need to be now that we have amplification, with correspondingly wide and finger-straining keys. Steel string guitars are louder than nylon but hurt more to play (and even nylon can hurt depending on your individual hand size and shape). I expect there are many children suffering hand/finger pain from being forced to play various instruments and genuinely hating it regardless of their skill level. When a child hates something, there's often a good reason for it that isn't obvious and that they don't have the communication skills to explain.

openplatypus 1y ago

> The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Such a bold claim coming from some who does not share their credentials on the matter. My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting. My sample of 1 contradicts your claim, but neither of us are experts on the matter.

Jensson 1y ago
> My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting Difficult things aren't interesting locally, you have to practice boring things in order to do interesting things in difficult subjects. Some kids do practice boring things if you just ask them, but most do not.
- Garlef 1y ago
  I think you're very very wrong. Especially in maths, there's not much to practice. There's stuff to understand. And while this might be exhausting it's not boring and it's a very rewarding process in itself. Or programming... What's there to practice? Really. I'd like an example of something that's boring. My impression is that if you follow the path of discovery and applying things in context, there's nothing that's really boring.
ohgr 1y ago
Sample size 3 here and they are all adults and all STEM grads. You have to push them, but push them right. That's a combination of coercion and encouragement and helping them avoid procrastination. There are hills to climb and they need helping over them to where the good stuff is. I remember my eldest crying over ratios at the dining table. Then algebra at the kitchen table. Then crying again at real analysis in the pub with me. She graduated with a first in the end.
- djeastm 1y ago
  I'd be interested to hear what she has to say about the experience

sysrestartusr 1y ago

The important part is to start as early as possible and absolutely not trust the school/teacher or kindergarden staff. They are badly programmed to reinforce kids in what comes easy to them and stop encouraging them after less than a handful of attempts. If you have to restart later, no matter at which point, even up into 'the kids' 20s ( ultra late bloomers, slackers, kids disgusted by most people for reason Z, drug- or "condition X"-induced deadbeats, repressed kids with and without ADHD, failed or successful attempts by psycho-social environments ) understand three things: 1) you are not pushing, even if you are, you are demanding sth for the sake of your child AND yourself. YOU WANT THIS first and foremost. It's not a bad thing, fuck what the little fucker wants. It's imperative for the kid to know that YOU WANT THIS no matter the obstacles. You want to see the process and result. It's a form of accountability, I guess. Kids pushing back is some dumb implicit way to check how important THEY and THE THING really are to you _or someone else_ (that counts for the ugly stuff, too). It's part of our evolutionary, hard-coded OODA loop. 2) just start at the very beginning, so that it's easy, almost effortless. The kid will be annoyed on most of the difficulty increases, it always depends on the sub-topic so don't back down. Even 20 year olds will catch up with their successful piers within some time. Neuro-genesis is awesome. Most 'grown up' stuff is child's play and a matter of baseline-human character anyway. 3) your stress level is what matters. Stay cool, be equanimous, serene, check your posture, voice, tone, the discussion won't last 5 min and will be worth it. Absolutely force your kids to do math.

snaige 1y ago

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kleene_op 1y ago

That was exactly my sentiment. My parents pushed me hard to do piano when I was around 10-12. After a year that went pretty well I was starting to get lazy and put very little work and investment into preparing for the next lesson. They still had me play piano a full year until they eventually gave up and bitterly told me what a waste my resignation felt to them. 20 years later, I got back to playing piano, and I can't thank my parent enough for having me to continue playing in my teenage years. Because it only took me a few month to be able to play pretty advanced piano sheets compared to some of my relatives who are struggling with the basics starting it in their adulthood. Same for maths. I feel that a lot of people like the author of this blog post are being extremely misdirected thinking math can and should be taught in a fun or amusing manner every time. Sure, a lot of topics in Maths can be made more digestible by "gameification" to help younglings develop an intuition. But a very big part of Maths actually requires you to sit down and painstakingly crunch down the numbers/equations, memorize and learn when to apply the correct methods to solve some problems. And even though this part can feel fun and engaging after a while, you can't expect children to exhibit such interest right of the bat without having them first struggle with the classics. Kids don't know better. Your role as a parent is to navigate along the fine line of forcing your kid to get good exposure to the (boring) activities we adults value and letting him enjoy what he enjoys. Only in doing that will your kid open up to the world and grow up into a functional human being.

kstenerud 1y ago
My parents forced me to play piano, right up until I told them that I'll destroy our piano if they don't lay off, and any consequences they could think of would not stop me (I was normally an obedient child, but enough was enough). That got their attention. 30 years later I picked up classical guitar and loved it! Do I thank my parents for forcing the piano on me? Hell no.
- hilbert42 1y ago
  Your experience is the antithesis of mine, I wonder why people are so different.
- cpursley 1y ago

maccard 1y ago

I don’t have kids. The really important part of this is that kids mimic what they see adults they like and respect doing. If their role models spend 6+ hours in front of the television every night, that’s what they’ll do. If their role models are playing music or sport, that’s what they’ll want to do.

Viliam1234 1y ago
Yes, but one of the problems with our civilization is that we typically do the important stuff out of our children's sight, and then come home tired and try to relax. So they do not naturally get a correct idea of what we do.
- tasuki 1y ago
  Yes. Due to an unfortunate event, I'm a single father. My life improved dramatically when I started doing all the chores while the kid was awake: - We do the chores together. - Yes it takes ages, but I need to kill the time anyway. - Then she falls asleep and I can relax. This is literal heaven, compared to when I played with her the whole day and then did the chores when she slept...
- maccard 1y ago
  I don’t disagree with you. Parenting is hard, and some of the job is being a role model. If you show your kids the only way to relax is to beg in front of Netflix that’s what they’ll see. One of the nicest things I see on a weekday evening bfis kids with their parents at the driving range - it’s clearly 0 break for the parent, but the kids are usually having a great time doing what mom/dad like doing.
khazhoux 1y ago
You are incorrect, kids don’t necessarily mimic their parents’ interests..

Aeolun 1y ago

So now you have a kid that’s really good at playing piano but absolutely hates doing so. Mission accomplished?

rerdavies 1y ago

The really important thing is to teach kids to find their joy. At the end of my second year of piano lessons, my teacher took me into her living room, and we listened to Glen Miller records for most of the hour. And then we had a cup of tea, and she told me, "this is the music that I love. I play piano because I love that music, and I want to be able to play it myself. What kind of music do you like?" I didn't really have an answer. So she told me that we should stop doing lessons, but once I found music that I loved, she'd be happy to teach me how to play it. In my early teens, I discovered Miles Davis. Once I had found my passion, all the hard work became play. I actually ended up learning to play jazz guitar, not piano. Even the heavy lifting was pure joy, because it had purpose and meaning. I didn't become great at mathematics until I discovered the joy in mathematics (another brilliant teacher handed me a stack of old math contests, and said here, you might find these fun. I placed 4th among 20,000 students). I didn't learn to write well until I discovered the joy in writings. (An absolutely brilliant English teacher who made us assign ourselves our own grades, but broke his promise in the end by upgrading all my papers to A+'s). And I gave my kids the room to find their joy as well.

Loic 1y ago
But kids are going to have setbacks, they will reach a plateau in their craft (music, painting, art, sport, ...). You need also as a good parent to help your kids go through, to not give up, because even joy to do is not always enough. This is the hard part. From my modest experience of being a ski/snowboard instructor and trying to raise 3 boys (now 12, 16 and 18).
- bethekidyouwant 1y ago
  why does a child need to break through a plateau at anything? Of my five sample size of five, expose them and support them, some things can’t even hook you until your brain grows enough .. The musical one is in a band now the nerdy one likes inhaling solder. I did force both boys to Hockey but just to have passable skills so that he can enjoy that all that comes with the sport as an adult
  - 1y ago

pyfon 1y ago

My take is Maths, Science and English push. Everything else let them decide what they like. Do parents push kids at every damn subject?

onetom 1y ago
I think everything else like, drawing, singing, gardening, exercise, meditation could all use a bit more pushing...

t0bia_s 1y ago

Do you do things because someone force you or beacuse you have self motivation?

hnthrow90348765 1y ago
As an adult, you develop the agency to force yourself to do things you don't like doing I can tell you as someone who was never forced into any extracurricular activities and was forced to go to church-schools that you probably should force your kids to learn something well (and not send them to religious schools)
- t0bia_s 1y ago
  You are not forced. You do stuffs you dont like because you racionally evaluate consequences that could probably not worth it if you don't do it. Why cannot we approach same attitude when raising kids?
CivBase 1y ago
I spend at least 40 hr a week doing something I have no motivation for. Most people do. Even if you don't hate your job, would you actually do it if you weren't getting paid?
- t0bia_s 1y ago
  Do you find it healthy? Doing stuffs that you hate? Isn't that a consequence of forced education system?
  - CivBase 1y ago
    Healthy in what sense? I wouldn't describe my job as "healthy activity". But I also wouldn't describe it as "unhealthy" and it enables me to enjoy a higher quality of life. Nobody's forcing me to work. I could quit today if I wanted. But I doubt that would be beneficial to my overall health, given I do not have the wealth required to support myself and my family for very long.

dandanua 1y ago

> Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. I guess it's true for adult humans, and other creatures as well. Instead of pushing, however, you should consider using other motivational methods (a simple prize for accomplishing something that you want from your kids works very well). Pushing can cause alienation and hate, which could affect their entire adult life.

cpursley 1y ago
It’s amazing how far the promise of a sticker or special treat will go for young ones.
martindbp 1y ago
I think many adults don't push themselves because they were always pushed by others their entire lives. It's a form of learned helplessness. You never have a say in what to do, so you just do what you're told, nothing more.

martindbp 1y ago

Many kids will do difficult stuff, just not the stuff you'd have in mind. Sometimes parents are right in what the kids should be focusing on, but I'd guess more than not they are wrong. For example, all the parents who discouraged heavy computer use or video games, when this is how most millennials came into programming and IT. Then there's the thing where a kid who is interested, obsessed even, learns SO much faster. I recall a story of a parent who wanted their child checked for learning disabilities and the psychologist exclaimed "Your son has memorized 350 Pokemon! It's not a question of learning ability, it's a question of motivation". In my view, if we let our children do what interests them, to some degree (of course anything taken to the extreme will likely fail, and it depends on the child), they are likely to cover way more territory, and probably more useful territory, than a child that is being forced and coerced. One of the many things my 7 year old has learned from Minecraft is an entire language (English), to a level which in the past (my generation) we didn't reach before perhaps 18 (and that was due to watching TV, not school). The other day I caught him taking notes on a piece of paper that said single = 1, double = 2, triple = 3, quadruple = 4, quintuple = 5, sextuple = 6. This is a child who should not be speaking English, but now he can write and spell it better than his native language, because we let him follow his passion. He's also learned a ton of engineering concepts and vocabulary, and has the ability to install mods, debug when they don't work, has a basic understanding of networking, IP addresses and on and on. He has no interest in playing an instrument right now, why should we force him? If the time comes and he wants to, he will learn it so much faster because he wants to get better.

kif 1y ago

I’m not a parent myself, but something I’ve seen happen with an American family I know, is that they push their kids way too much to learn and do as many things as possible. They have their music lessons, their many clubs at school, several physical activities such as soccer, tennis, taekwondo. At some point you have to stop and wonder whether you’re taking their childhood away. These kids barely have any free time. School during weekdays, activities during the weekend… worse than a full time job. I think there’s a balance to be struck. Your kids don’t need to be good at everything.

electriclove 1y ago
Definitely agree though the alternative can quickly become all day spent on TikTok or YouTube shorts.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
  This. I have several people with kids similar age as mine in my circle, who seemingly gave up and now its all phone, pad or tv at all times. It is very easy to lose that kid to other distractions unless you provide enough of a structure for them.
hkpack 1y ago
Every parent is fighting an uphill battle against the technology now. You either structure the day in such a way that there is literally no time for anything outside of activities, or you just observe the kid gets sucked into the screens with less and less will to do anything else.
- margalabargala 1y ago
  That is a false dichotomy. If not at a club/activity, why does the child have unrestricted access to screens?
  - hkpack 1y ago
    Have you personally tried to keep a teen away from a screen? If you did with a success, I would really like to hear your story and what has worked for you. Looking at my kids friends / classmates, almost all of the parents just gave up, with the exception of a small group that is still trying with the discussed approach.

zerr 1y ago

Why not anxiety instead of laziness?

alphazard 1y ago

This kind of forced practice can create the appearance of a certain level of competence, but it rarely produces a deep understanding or innate appreciation of any of those subjects. Take music, for example. Many high schoolers play an instrument as part of the college admissions game. Almost none of those kids can play music with their friends and just enjoy it. To them music is this structured activity where they get paper with dots on it, and they have to play the right notes at the right time to pass the class. These kids never develop a true understanding or appreciation for music. They don't keep their instruments or practice as adults. There's so many things to learn to be good at, why not find something that you actually like?

tstrimple 1y ago
This is one of the reasons I'm really happy that my daughter found show choir. Choir sucks. My kids hated it. I hated going to watch it. Bunch of terrible old songs that no one knows. Now she's singing and dancing to pop songs and show tunes on the stage and it's far more engaging for her. I do think it also helps that show choir is a tryout based program so the floor for interest and talent is far higher than with the regular choir.

timcobb 1y ago

> A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it This may be true, but explain to me what are the returns you get on forcing math (or anything) on kids? They won't like it, they won't learn it intimately, the won't internalize it, it'll be unusable knowledge and mostly a waste of time with lots of bad vibes and probably even a little trauma... I spent a lot of time with math in high school and college but that was because I had a couple teachers who really elucidated why *I* might find math to be interesting (in my case, it was physics and computing). Forcing people to do anything generally leads to nothing worthwhile.

apwell23 1y ago

what does it mean to "push" ? they used to beat the living shit out of us india when were growing up. is that what you mean?

doright 1y ago

Double-edged sword IMO. I was mandated to a half hour of piano practice early on, and I came to dread it. But in my experience that was less having to do with being pushed to practice, and more I loathed my parents overhearing my piano playing and thinking they'd come down and criticize me for not trying hard enough. This was an uncommon occurrence, but it occurred enough to plant the seeds of anxiety in my mind. The nature of pushing needs to be considered in the sense of the overall parent-child relationship, and not just being handed a Mikrokosmos and an egg timer. If my parents were more proud of my ability to push forward and took interest in the piano and my playing beyond just performing good at recitals, I probably would have grown up to truly enjoy performing music. Today I'm left with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth that would require conceited effort to overcome. So I guess my parents weren't "lazy" in your terms but a bit too strict for me to conclude I would be "good at music" that early.

tom89999 1y ago

But should the parent decide if the kid will become a musician? What if its not talented and pushing it with force to mechanically play Mozart? I later became interested in playing bass guitar, nobody forced me. I did it for leisure. Children are and will not be experts in all fields. Sure you are right that some discipline is needed to move forward and to keep up with something. Do you remember and use everything you ever learned in school, if its not needed for your current job? Kids nowadays spent half to 3/4 of the day in school or outside their own home. When should they be kids? I understand the pressure of parents to make sure they have good grades, some is necessary, but not really all of it. I never learned touch type in school. I did that on my own after work within half a year. I did it because i was interested in. Worked 20 years in IT. Now i am currently trying to get my amateur radio license, i use my knowledge that i collected so far, allthough i was bad at math in school. Life is a journey, i got three professions so far.

ForOldHack 1y ago

At first I am reluctant to agree. But I decided to take math and English every year. I sucked at math, and had to figure out how to get good on my own. Now I have a degree. Math and music go hand in hand. I hated the music I was learning, so I quit lessons, and got the music I wanted to learn and struggled to learn it and I got muh better. I am an avid reader. I reluctantly admit that you are right, and I am the better for it because I overcame my lazyness and found joy, in math, English, reading, and music. I sing, play piano, guitar, and listen with appreciation.

hdjjhhvvhga 1y ago

> Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. I roughly classify parents in two groups: (1) like the author of the article, (2) like you. Based on my limited observation, neither can be claimed to give optimal results, and it more boils down to "see what actually works for your kid in the long term" which unfortunately far too often can only be definitely said in hindsight.

trod1234 1y ago

Its not a good take because no alternative is provided, but the author does notice something important that 99% of other people don't notice today. They don't realize it explicitly, but the actions do recognize it implicitly. The school system today uses elements, structures, and clusters, the same techniques used in real torture. Its embedded into the structure of by-rote pedagogy starting in the late 1970s, and it also goes by another name starting in the 90s, where Administrators, NEA representatives, and Teachers, call this "Lying to Children". Most parents today seem to be simply too busy, treating school like daycare, or maybe they just don't love their children enough to put the time in to protect them and figure out what is actually happening to their kids. Classic curricula followed the western philosophy of the greeks, you develop tools that let you reduce a working system to first principles (in guided manner), which are proven true, and then you use those principles to model the system accurate, and then predict the future parts of that system. "Lying to Children" does the exact opposite in time. It starts with a flawed model that is useless teaching abstract concepts and includes other unrelated concepts that arise naturally from that flawed model. The student is then as mastery progresses forced to struggle to unlearn material that isn't correct, and then relearn the finer details with each new flawed model given in a progressive fashion, over, and over, and over, becoming more useful yes, but torturing themselves, and in a way destroying themselves in the process. When questions or true insights occur, the flawed model breaks those insights requiring you to do things differently in earlier classes before you can use those, but not even this information is given so you can't leap frog the torture. There are additional strategic structures that orchestrate failures to gatekeep technical fields like math. There is an Algebra->Geometry->Trigonometry sequence which uses a gimmick in undisclosed pass criteria between class 1 and class 3, so the student passes initially but then fails and has to go back to Algebra, but can't because its sequential. Its called burning the bridge. Regardless, the student is blamed, no help is given (because there is no cure for torture). They are told, "maybe you're just not a math person, you should choose a career that doesn't use this if your having trouble. This gatekeeper is orchestrated to induce PTSD towards math in general, and as all technical fields require math this prevents them from entering those fields. Some are able to pass and enter these professions, but never the best and brightest, only the most compliant with blinders. The exception to this is if you bypassed the entire process through private boarding school, and Ivy league college straightaway. If your an elite, you get a decent education. These structures follow a false ideology based in gnosis/gnosticism which is long refuted, but that hasn't stopped these things from being used for purpose, or allowed others to remove these. There is an all out war that has been happening for years, a war on our children. Compare low attention spans and other things with the documented characteristics of torture from PoWs and you'll see there are parallels everywhere. The thousand yard stare. Hollowed out feelings. Lashing out. These are often referenced in the material on torture. The problem is unlike adults, once broken and distorted by torture children carry that forward their entire lives, unable to change because its not learning, its torture, and there are very few who ever recover. Failing to see the reality of what is happening and calling it lazy and complacent without understanding is problematic and most definitely not the sign of a good parent if that means you let your children's minds be destroyed under a false belief that its just laziness. For those parents that are unaware of what I mean by torture. You can read books on the subject matter by Joost Meerloo, or Robert Lifton. From the case studies you can derive the requirements and you would be shocked to find and recognize these things being used everywhere today without you knowing. Robert Cialdini touches on the psychological blindspots used which bypass your and your children's perception to the issue. The elements are isolation, cognitive dissonance, coercion with real or perceived loss, and lack of agency to remove oneself from the situation. Some would argue this also includes time and exposure. Structuring and Clustering, forces active engagement through specially designed circular trauma loops, forcing the psyche back on itself to destroy itself, and narco-synthesis and narco-analysis which in the 50s used barbituates to trigger dopamine are used today through associative priming through many ways including your phone (gamification uses many of these things learned from research on torture). It is established that those who are drugged have less resistance to torture, and those with faith-based beliefs tend to resist torture better. One of the first things to go under torture is rational thought.

swat535 1y ago

I think there's also a significant cultural dimension to this discussion. For example, in many Middle Eastern and Asian cultures (pardon my generalization here), there's an ingrained expectation that children should be pushed, often quite hard, especially in areas like mathematics, science, engineering, and law. Hence the old cliche: "You have three career options: doctor, lawyer, or engineer.". I've seen this firsthand as a Middle Easterner (I was born in IRAN). My father is an engineer, and both my parents were relentless when it came to academic discipline. I ended up in computer science, and my brother became a pharmaceutical researcher after obtaining his PHD.. There's no question that this kind of structure and pressure produced tangible results. But I'd be lying if I said it was an easy or joyful process. It ended up costing me plenty of social anxieties and now I struggle with social dynamics. That said, I have mixed feelings about it. While the rigor pays off in terms of career and technical competence, it often comes at the cost of creativity, intrinsic motivation, and the space to explore things like literature, music, and the arts. I sometimes wonder what paths we might have followed if exploration had been valued as highly as performance. So I _partially_ agree with you that some degree of external motivation is necessary, especially with children who haven't yet developed discipline. But I also think we should be careful not to frame this solely as a matter of "lazy" vs. "good" parenting. Upon reflection, I think that there's a balance between encouragement, discipline, and allowing for the development of intrinsic interest. Different families, cultures, and even individual children may need to strike this in different ways.

vel0city 1y ago

I agree. I got frustrated a lot being forced to practice the piano as a child. Not a long practice, just like you mentioned, about 20 minutes a few days a week and an hour lesson every other week or so with someone in the neighborhood. I look back at the memories very fondly now. As a pre-teen I got invited to play at my cousin's wedding and everyone still talks about it. It gave me a good foundation and I performed well in highschool band and small ensembles. I now play my instruments for my kids and it brings us all a lot of joy. Both of my parents weren't especially musical. I'm not amazing or anything, but I've got enough skill to hear a tune from a show or someplace and play it at home for my kids reasonably enough. But I wouldn't be able to if my mom didn't make me practice.

tshaddox 1y ago

How do you know that the conclusion you’re drawing from your experience raising kids is correct? There are alternative conclusions that sound like they match your experience, such as “most kids won’t do difficult things that don’t interest them if you don’t push them.”

jalapenos 1y ago

Just on this, do you factor in that maybe they don't practice the piano because they aren't interested in it, and that's fine because it has no practical utility? I.e. in contrast with things like spelling, which do. Also in your opinion at what age should pushing start, and how much pushing per age group?

khazhoux 1y ago
There is little practical utility in most subjects.

dustbunny 1y ago

Every kid that I know who was forced to do their 20 minutes of piano a day now doesn't play piano and can only play with sheet music in front of them. They can't improvise, they seem to take no joy in the music. I was the kid who wanted a keyboard and guitar but didn't get one until I could afford one in my twenties, then I learned just enough to be able to be creative. People say I'm good at piano but technically I suck, I'm just creative and expressive with limited tools. It's an interesting phenomenon, the adults who are technically great at piano, but can't play anything without it being written in sheet music.