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Something we don't pay enough attention to is that while calculators have solved everyday math to the point we downplay it as a required skill, people are not p

Something we don't pay enough attention to is that while calculators have solved everyday math to the point we downplay it as a required skill, people are not pulling out their calculator at the grocery store to make better purchase decisions, even though we all have one in our pocket now. So we handwave the importance of being able to do everyday math in our heads, while also not taking advantage of the tool that's a substitute for it. We're less educated but also less effective than we would be if we'd never invented automated calculation and were forced to be sharp about it. Is there a name for this phenomenon? And what's it going to look like a decade after AI has caused people to stop using their brain for general thinking like it's stopped them from doing math? (I'm sure you, the reader, are very good at math and are an exception to this still-apt generalization.)

XorNot 2y ago
But the reality is that's usually almost a false trade - I'm not buying one item in the grocery store I'm buying easily a dozen or more. The best way to do this would be toss the online inventory into a solver to calculate "best value" for me, but in reality it would be a waste of time because if they're out of something, or the quality looks suspect, then that blows that calculation completely. And then am I going to do this for every single item, where every minute in the store is multiplying through the rest of my day? How much is the time shopping trading off against extremely sparse leisure time? And then there's intangibles - something being slightly cheaper doesn't necessarily mean I'm making a good trade off by buying it for my overall quality of life. In Australia at least this whole problem was perfectly adequately solved by mandating bulk price labeling on all items in the supermarket. Products in comparable categories have per volume/weight prices listed alongside item prices.
- trinix912 2y ago
  > In Australia at least this whole problem was perfectly adequately solved by mandating bulk price labeling on all items in the supermarket. Products in comparable categories have per volume/weight prices listed alongside item prices. Same in Europe. Mandatory labeling per volume/weight, pre-discount, after-VAT in addition to the discounted item prices. Then you glance at the shelves and make up your mind.
j45 2y ago
Learning to get to a best price per unit is a pretty useful skill that could make a lot of difference for a lot of future adults, just like financial literacy. Some things aren't optional, and if they are seen as such, it's going to force the child to learn later in life what they couldn't earlier on.
jodoherty 2y ago
I think most people don't care about optimizing an extra $10 out of their weekly grocery run. Probably a better example is figuring out the cost of a loan. Just multiply the amortized monthly payment by the term and compare that to the loan amount. If the difference makes you balk, then go ahead and walk. How many people even realize that loan interest is a significant cost and would bother to do that? Or know how to do that? Most people just try to minimize monthly payments to something they can bear and sign the paperwork.
- lordfrito 2y ago
  > I think most people don't care about optimizing an extra $10 out of their weekly grocery run I remember when this kind of "optimization" was done regularly by a great many shoppers on budgets. Back in the day some stores even used to put calculators on the shopping carts. People used to know how to budget. Apparently the average American is affluent enough to not need to be able to do this any more. I worry that the atrophy of these kinds of practical skills will cause much pain for a great many people at some point down the road.
  - jodoherty 2y ago
    I worry too. American consumer credit card debt sounds like it's rising pretty quickly, and many people I talk to have a lack of free will and carry a sense of unfairness in the system they live in. However, people can also adapt pretty quickly. Those grocery shopping "optimization" skills are making a big come back (and have been since Covid). There are plenty of YouTube and TikTok videos popularizing how to get more out of their grocery hauls. Lots of people are also learning how to budget, how to invest, etc. and sharing their excitement about it too. For some folks, they finally learn this stuff in their 40s and 50s, but there are also a lot of young adults learning these skills thanks to the Internet. So I also have hope. I just don't think the lack of basic math and budgeting skills displayed by average consumers are a problem so much as a symptom.

XorNot 2y ago

But the reality is that's usually almost a false trade - I'm not buying one item in the grocery store I'm buying easily a dozen or more. The best way to do this would be toss the online inventory into a solver to calculate "best value" for me, but in reality it would be a waste of time because if they're out of something, or the quality looks suspect, then that blows that calculation completely. And then am I going to do this for every single item, where every minute in the store is multiplying through the rest of my day? How much is the time shopping trading off against extremely sparse leisure time? And then there's intangibles - something being slightly cheaper doesn't necessarily mean I'm making a good trade off by buying it for my overall quality of life. In Australia at least this whole problem was perfectly adequately solved by mandating bulk price labeling on all items in the supermarket. Products in comparable categories have per volume/weight prices listed alongside item prices.

trinix912 2y ago
> In Australia at least this whole problem was perfectly adequately solved by mandating bulk price labeling on all items in the supermarket. Products in comparable categories have per volume/weight prices listed alongside item prices. Same in Europe. Mandatory labeling per volume/weight, pre-discount, after-VAT in addition to the discounted item prices. Then you glance at the shelves and make up your mind.

j45 2y ago

Learning to get to a best price per unit is a pretty useful skill that could make a lot of difference for a lot of future adults, just like financial literacy. Some things aren't optional, and if they are seen as such, it's going to force the child to learn later in life what they couldn't earlier on.

jodoherty 2y ago

I think most people don't care about optimizing an extra $10 out of their weekly grocery run. Probably a better example is figuring out the cost of a loan. Just multiply the amortized monthly payment by the term and compare that to the loan amount. If the difference makes you balk, then go ahead and walk. How many people even realize that loan interest is a significant cost and would bother to do that? Or know how to do that? Most people just try to minimize monthly payments to something they can bear and sign the paperwork.

lordfrito 2y ago
> I think most people don't care about optimizing an extra $10 out of their weekly grocery run I remember when this kind of "optimization" was done regularly by a great many shoppers on budgets. Back in the day some stores even used to put calculators on the shopping carts. People used to know how to budget. Apparently the average American is affluent enough to not need to be able to do this any more. I worry that the atrophy of these kinds of practical skills will cause much pain for a great many people at some point down the road.
- jodoherty 2y ago
  I worry too. American consumer credit card debt sounds like it's rising pretty quickly, and many people I talk to have a lack of free will and carry a sense of unfairness in the system they live in. However, people can also adapt pretty quickly. Those grocery shopping "optimization" skills are making a big come back (and have been since Covid). There are plenty of YouTube and TikTok videos popularizing how to get more out of their grocery hauls. Lots of people are also learning how to budget, how to invest, etc. and sharing their excitement about it too. For some folks, they finally learn this stuff in their 40s and 50s, but there are also a lot of young adults learning these skills thanks to the Internet. So I also have hope. I just don't think the lack of basic math and budgeting skills displayed by average consumers are a problem so much as a symptom.