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> In Italy, ordering an espresso takes five seconds. Have you had espresso in Italy? By all measures, the worst coffee I have had anywhere in the world, on the

> In Italy, ordering an espresso takes five seconds. Have you had espresso in Italy? By all measures, the worst coffee I have had anywhere in the world, on the level of instant coffee in 2010 (remember that?). I personally don’t complain when people emphasize the compelling story of their offerings – it typically coincides with a high-quality brew!

Centigonal 1y ago
I went to Rome in 2019 and all the coffee I had was pretty decent! It was all espresso, and a lot of Lavazza (not third wave local roaster stuff), but it was all pretty good.
shaky-carrousel 1y ago
I’m guessing you didn’t travel all across Italy tasting espresso to back up such a broad statement. I’d be surprised if you ventured much beyond a few tourist traps in Rome.
- thenthenthen 1y ago
  I love LOVE the coffee culture in Italy, 1€ espresso’s at a standing bar?! Count me in!
lxgr 1y ago
That's in fact exactly what I love about espresso in Italy and some other European countries: It's ubiquitous, fast, cheap (even cheaper if you drink it standing up!), and as a result a commodity and not something pretentious. I also don't remember ever having had a bad cup of espresso in Italy. If it ever happens, I'll just walk a few steps down the street and chase it down with a decent or good one.
- noirbot 1y ago
  But that is, in itself, a normalcy bias. I don't generally like Italian roast coffee. It's too oily and generally upsets my stomach. It's not a flavor or style I like in espresso. I'm not going to claim no one should like it - clearly people do, but if you don't like that, Italy is a really bad place to live because it's so orthodox about its espresso and doesn't support "pretentious" places that may serve something that doesn't taste "normal". Just because a specific style has been around for years doesn't mean it's the only valid style that's not "pretentious".
- reverius42 1y ago
  The best thing about espresso in Italy, besides it being universally drinkable (assuming you like espresso at all), is that last time I was there it was still only 1 euro. Drop a coin on the bar and get an espresso shot, any time. I assume it's more like 2 euros now.
thomassmith65 1y ago
This is like someone accustomed to rubbery, processed mozzarella visiting Italy and complaining that Italian mozzarella has so little flavor and texture. If someone doesn't like Italian mozzarella, then they don't like mozzarella: what they like is some mozzarella-inspired thing. The same goes for espresso. In Italy, espresso and coffee have been synonymous for over a century.
- arthurofbabylon 1y ago
  Espresso has moved beyond the Italian methods, despite its origins. Yes, both a Moka pot and a full pressure larger machine handled by someone practiced can produce excellent coffee, but you cannot seriously expect espresso in an Italian city to compete with what is happening in Tokyo, Bangkok, Taipei, Vancouver, San Francisco, etc. During coffee’s third wave the profession of barista emerged, and Italy took little part in this elevation of craft. There are people who have literally built a career out of what others (Italians included) dismiss as fuss. Yes, Italy devised some of the original techniques, but that was about sixty years ago, with — I would argue — limited development since. Drink fifty espressos each in Rome, Milan, (or the villages!), Tokyo, Bangkok, Vancouver then tell me where you think it is best. (PS — Nice try, but no one says Italian mozzarella is bad; it is incredibly delicious by all accounts.)
  - thomassmith65 1y ago
    There's some failure to comprehend the ubiquity of espresso in Italy here. When I was a kid, espresso was practically unavailable outside Southern Europe. In Italy, every household had, as they still do, a stovetop espresso maker. In Italy, every city corner had, as it still does, a bar serving espresso. Whatever Italians consider good espresso, we - who grew up on filter coffee, which Italians do not drink - probably ought to defer. Is there a better espresso somewhere? Perhaps. Is it conceivable that Italian espresso is terrible? Nope. The proposition is as absurd as claiming that Japanese sushi is subpar, or that Swedish dammsugare are the world's worst.
    - pjmlp 1y ago

Centigonal 1y ago

I went to Rome in 2019 and all the coffee I had was pretty decent! It was all espresso, and a lot of Lavazza (not third wave local roaster stuff), but it was all pretty good.

shaky-carrousel 1y ago

I’m guessing you didn’t travel all across Italy tasting espresso to back up such a broad statement. I’d be surprised if you ventured much beyond a few tourist traps in Rome.

thenthenthen 1y ago
I love LOVE the coffee culture in Italy, 1€ espresso’s at a standing bar?! Count me in!

lxgr 1y ago

That's in fact exactly what I love about espresso in Italy and some other European countries: It's ubiquitous, fast, cheap (even cheaper if you drink it standing up!), and as a result a commodity and not something pretentious. I also don't remember ever having had a bad cup of espresso in Italy. If it ever happens, I'll just walk a few steps down the street and chase it down with a decent or good one.

noirbot 1y ago
But that is, in itself, a normalcy bias. I don't generally like Italian roast coffee. It's too oily and generally upsets my stomach. It's not a flavor or style I like in espresso. I'm not going to claim no one should like it - clearly people do, but if you don't like that, Italy is a really bad place to live because it's so orthodox about its espresso and doesn't support "pretentious" places that may serve something that doesn't taste "normal". Just because a specific style has been around for years doesn't mean it's the only valid style that's not "pretentious".
reverius42 1y ago
The best thing about espresso in Italy, besides it being universally drinkable (assuming you like espresso at all), is that last time I was there it was still only 1 euro. Drop a coin on the bar and get an espresso shot, any time. I assume it's more like 2 euros now.

thomassmith65 1y ago

This is like someone accustomed to rubbery, processed mozzarella visiting Italy and complaining that Italian mozzarella has so little flavor and texture. If someone doesn't like Italian mozzarella, then they don't like mozzarella: what they like is some mozzarella-inspired thing. The same goes for espresso. In Italy, espresso and coffee have been synonymous for over a century.

arthurofbabylon 1y ago
Espresso has moved beyond the Italian methods, despite its origins. Yes, both a Moka pot and a full pressure larger machine handled by someone practiced can produce excellent coffee, but you cannot seriously expect espresso in an Italian city to compete with what is happening in Tokyo, Bangkok, Taipei, Vancouver, San Francisco, etc. During coffee’s third wave the profession of barista emerged, and Italy took little part in this elevation of craft. There are people who have literally built a career out of what others (Italians included) dismiss as fuss. Yes, Italy devised some of the original techniques, but that was about sixty years ago, with — I would argue — limited development since. Drink fifty espressos each in Rome, Milan, (or the villages!), Tokyo, Bangkok, Vancouver then tell me where you think it is best. (PS — Nice try, but no one says Italian mozzarella is bad; it is incredibly delicious by all accounts.)
- thomassmith65 1y ago
  There's some failure to comprehend the ubiquity of espresso in Italy here. When I was a kid, espresso was practically unavailable outside Southern Europe. In Italy, every household had, as they still do, a stovetop espresso maker. In Italy, every city corner had, as it still does, a bar serving espresso. Whatever Italians consider good espresso, we - who grew up on filter coffee, which Italians do not drink - probably ought to defer. Is there a better espresso somewhere? Perhaps. Is it conceivable that Italian espresso is terrible? Nope. The proposition is as absurd as claiming that Japanese sushi is subpar, or that Swedish dammsugare are the world's worst.
  - pjmlp 1y ago