10 ms·

It has never really been about "information wants to be free". Librarians (and hackers, etc.) have always restricted the flow of information. It's just called

by o11c 2y ago

It has never really been about "information wants to be free". Librarians (and hackers, etc.) have always restricted the flow of information. It's just called "curation" when you agree with it rather than "censorship".

karaterobot 2y ago
I have an MLIS, and worked in libraries for years. It's a common misconception that librarians choose books they think are best, or most morally or intellectually instructive for readers. This never happens, or almost never happens. They buy and lend books that the community has asked to read, or which they believe the community wants to read, based on, e.g. popularity. There's not a council of elders deciding what you're allowed to read.
collingreen 2y ago
I get your meaning but it feels overly reductive. I'd call good faith picking a catalog and not trying to prevent people from finding certain books "curation". I'd call "delete anything that says gay" censorship.
- toast0 2y ago
  It's hard to have an objective standard. A curator and a censor are both trying to pick content they think is appropriate for their community. There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. I would think most librarians would consider adding requested content or at least referring the patron to another library or other means to access it.
  - AnIrishDuck 2y ago
    > There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. My partner is a librarian and I can tell you they frequently add books they personally dislike or outright loathe (be it for content reasons or if they just think it's a bad book). This can happen at the request of the community, or even if they believe somebody in the community might want said book. This "curation is actually censorship" balderdash is completely out of touch with what library curation looks like and how librarians work and see their responsibility to their community
    - matwood 2y ago
      I work in the library space and know librarians from all over the US (world really), and what you say is absolutely true. They really do try and represent diverse viewpoints in the limited physical space and budgets they have.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  I think the point is that whoever is in charge of curation can (and likely sometimes do) quietly and easily delete anything that says gay without anyone really noticing Then those same people will often make a fuss when someone else tells them what they are allowed to curate
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
soulofmischief 2y ago
Every school librarian I ever had fought against the administration constantly about restricting access to "banned books". We'd often have "banned book week" where our librarians and English teachers would encourage us to read books that have either been banned in the past or were currently banned from our schools. I'm not sure what you mean about hackers restricting the flow of information, please provide a citation that backs up your blanket generalization.
- fallingknife 2y ago
  Yeah but do they include the spicy ones like Mein Kampf or just the ones that agree with their politics. It's not really a "banned book week" unless you're pissing everybody off.
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    Absolutely. Why is everyone responding to this thread going right to Mein Kampf? It was very easy for me to access that book. > It's not really a "banned book week" unless you're pissing everybody off. They did. Oh, they did. Lots of parents got pissed every year. Censors will censor.
    - kmeisthax 2y ago
      > Why is everyone responding to this thread going right to Mein Kampf? Because they're riding a political hobby horse, insisting that the only valid defense of 1A (free speech) is to demand a figurative repeal of 3A. i.e. to require librarians to quarter the enemy's troops in their house. Because apparently the only valid measure of how free your speech is, is how much you tolerate some of the most censorious regimes in history.
      - greenavocado 2y ago
        Enemy troops? Tolerance of censorship?
    - bombcar 2y ago
bityard 2y ago
How have hackers restricted the flow of information?
- tbrownaw 2y ago
  - any ransomware gang when their target pays up - the people on the technical side of Digital Restrictions Management stuff - the folks behind SELinux - anyone DOSing a service they don't like
- mystraline 2y ago
  I have, personally. There was a local municipal hack that affected in-person county operations. The fix would be around $2.2M. I chose to keep quiet because that money could be better spent elsewhere. So yes, I did censor myself because the harm of speaking was much greater than being quiet.
weard_beard 2y ago
A librarian and a censor walk into a bar. The librarian orders 3 drinks and a glass of water. The censor orders seafood, a live show with pyrotechnics, and the dishwasher's birth certificate.
- ang_cire 2y ago
  Took me a second, but it's a great analogy for the difference in power.
  - weard_beard 2y ago
    I would call the difference: A librarian has perspective, intent, and a fierce optimism honed like the edge of a knife through abrasive contact with the world. A censor sees only wrong thought and choices without any of the qualities of a librarian. (The Seafood in a bar that mostly serves alcohol is probably not up to code in terms of food safety, the bar might occasionally have live shows and some of the things done at the live show might not be 100% safe, the dishwasher might have taken the job because he is not a legal citizen and the bar owner pays him outside of normal employment contracts...) But if you see another allegory then it’s a good joke.
    - ang_cire 2y ago
      And here I thought the point was that a librarian has the means to ask for and get 3 drinks and water, same as anyone else, but a censor (i.e. the state apparatus) has the means to make huge and unreasonable demands.
      - weard_beard 2y ago
        A significant part of the imagery of the joke on another level is that a librarian is there to use the bar for its intended purpose, and even within that small amount of power, the librarian knows her limits.
mschuster91 2y ago
> It's just called "curation" when you agree with it rather than "censorship". At least in Germany, virtually all public libraries are interconnected with each other, so if one library doesn't have a particular book, another one which has it can send the book their way. And in the case that there's no library at all holding it in stock in all of Germany (which is damn near impossible), as long as the printers have fulfilled their legal obligation to send at least two copies of the book to the National Library, they'll be the "library of last resort".
- trollbridge 2y ago
  I wish we had this in the U.S. We've actually had to travel (as in physically drive to D.C.) to the Library of Congress because it was the only place that had a book.
- AnIrishDuck 2y ago
  This interconnection is the case in the US as well. It's trivial to get books within the same regional system, and you can do inter library loans for pretty much any other library in the country (though not the Library of Congress, which is the US "library of last resort"). The core "engineer mindset" is solving interesting problems. The core librarian mindset is connecting people with the information they are seeking. That's what drives them.
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    It's become difficult to get books "valued" at over $1,000, which is basically any out of print book now thanks to Amazon's bogus valuations.
    - justin66 2y ago
      I peeked at your profile and, well, do you know about OhioLINK? I think maybe you're holding it wrong. The last time I grabbed something rare via OhioLINK it was a twenty year old instructor's manual that accompanies a calculus textbook I own, which they shipped all the way from across the state from some little college's library. It didn't occur to me to calculate the market value of that book. But here's a test... I see seven copies of Asimov's Annotated Paradise Lost "AVAILABLE" for borrowing and... Your request for Asimov's annotated Paradise lost. Text by John Milton, notes by Isaac Asimov. was successful. I fully expect this to go through but I'll make a note here if it doesn't. And hey, you should totally try this yourself, it's an interesting book. (edit: although if we're being honest that's coming from a big Asimov fan, so I'm hopelessly biased. This went out of print after one print run, so it's probably not objectively great.)
trelane 2y ago
Seems relevant: https://www.thefp.com/p/the-truth-about-banned-books https://www.thefp.com/p/the-truth-about-banned-books
- hn_acker 2y ago
  And I find the article's claims hard to believe. According to the American Library Association, which tracks attempts to ban books from libraries [1]: > The most common justifications for censorship provided by complainants were false claims of illegal obscenity for minors; inclusion of LGBTQIA+ characters or themes; and covering topics of race, racism, equity, and social justice. [1] https://www.ala.org/news/2025/04/american-library-association-kicks-national-library-week-top-10-most-challenged-books https://www.ala.org/news/2025/04/american-library-associatio...

by o11c 2y ago

karaterobot 2y ago

I have an MLIS, and worked in libraries for years. It's a common misconception that librarians choose books they think are best, or most morally or intellectually instructive for readers. This never happens, or almost never happens. They buy and lend books that the community has asked to read, or which they believe the community wants to read, based on, e.g. popularity. There's not a council of elders deciding what you're allowed to read.

collingreen 2y ago

I get your meaning but it feels overly reductive. I'd call good faith picking a catalog and not trying to prevent people from finding certain books "curation". I'd call "delete anything that says gay" censorship.

toast0 2y ago
It's hard to have an objective standard. A curator and a censor are both trying to pick content they think is appropriate for their community. There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. I would think most librarians would consider adding requested content or at least referring the patron to another library or other means to access it.
- AnIrishDuck 2y ago
  > There may be a difference in what they do when the community requests content not in the catalog. My partner is a librarian and I can tell you they frequently add books they personally dislike or outright loathe (be it for content reasons or if they just think it's a bad book). This can happen at the request of the community, or even if they believe somebody in the community might want said book. This "curation is actually censorship" balderdash is completely out of touch with what library curation looks like and how librarians work and see their responsibility to their community
  - matwood 2y ago
    I work in the library space and know librarians from all over the US (world really), and what you say is absolutely true. They really do try and represent diverse viewpoints in the limited physical space and budgets they have.
bluefirebrand 2y ago
I think the point is that whoever is in charge of curation can (and likely sometimes do) quietly and easily delete anything that says gay without anyone really noticing Then those same people will often make a fuss when someone else tells them what they are allowed to curate

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

soulofmischief 2y ago

Every school librarian I ever had fought against the administration constantly about restricting access to "banned books". We'd often have "banned book week" where our librarians and English teachers would encourage us to read books that have either been banned in the past or were currently banned from our schools. I'm not sure what you mean about hackers restricting the flow of information, please provide a citation that backs up your blanket generalization.

fallingknife 2y ago
Yeah but do they include the spicy ones like Mein Kampf or just the ones that agree with their politics. It's not really a "banned book week" unless you're pissing everybody off.
- soulofmischief 2y ago
  Absolutely. Why is everyone responding to this thread going right to Mein Kampf? It was very easy for me to access that book. > It's not really a "banned book week" unless you're pissing everybody off. They did. Oh, they did. Lots of parents got pissed every year. Censors will censor.
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    > Why is everyone responding to this thread going right to Mein Kampf? Because they're riding a political hobby horse, insisting that the only valid defense of 1A (free speech) is to demand a figurative repeal of 3A. i.e. to require librarians to quarter the enemy's troops in their house. Because apparently the only valid measure of how free your speech is, is how much you tolerate some of the most censorious regimes in history.
    - greenavocado 2y ago
      Enemy troops? Tolerance of censorship?
  - bombcar 2y ago

bityard 2y ago

How have hackers restricted the flow of information?

tbrownaw 2y ago
- any ransomware gang when their target pays up - the people on the technical side of Digital Restrictions Management stuff - the folks behind SELinux - anyone DOSing a service they don't like
mystraline 2y ago
I have, personally. There was a local municipal hack that affected in-person county operations. The fix would be around $2.2M. I chose to keep quiet because that money could be better spent elsewhere. So yes, I did censor myself because the harm of speaking was much greater than being quiet.

weard_beard 2y ago

A librarian and a censor walk into a bar. The librarian orders 3 drinks and a glass of water. The censor orders seafood, a live show with pyrotechnics, and the dishwasher's birth certificate.

ang_cire 2y ago
Took me a second, but it's a great analogy for the difference in power.
- weard_beard 2y ago
  I would call the difference: A librarian has perspective, intent, and a fierce optimism honed like the edge of a knife through abrasive contact with the world. A censor sees only wrong thought and choices without any of the qualities of a librarian. (The Seafood in a bar that mostly serves alcohol is probably not up to code in terms of food safety, the bar might occasionally have live shows and some of the things done at the live show might not be 100% safe, the dishwasher might have taken the job because he is not a legal citizen and the bar owner pays him outside of normal employment contracts...) But if you see another allegory then it’s a good joke.
  - ang_cire 2y ago
    And here I thought the point was that a librarian has the means to ask for and get 3 drinks and water, same as anyone else, but a censor (i.e. the state apparatus) has the means to make huge and unreasonable demands.
    - weard_beard 2y ago
      A significant part of the imagery of the joke on another level is that a librarian is there to use the bar for its intended purpose, and even within that small amount of power, the librarian knows her limits.

mschuster91 2y ago

> It's just called "curation" when you agree with it rather than "censorship". At least in Germany, virtually all public libraries are interconnected with each other, so if one library doesn't have a particular book, another one which has it can send the book their way. And in the case that there's no library at all holding it in stock in all of Germany (which is damn near impossible), as long as the printers have fulfilled their legal obligation to send at least two copies of the book to the National Library, they'll be the "library of last resort".

trollbridge 2y ago
I wish we had this in the U.S. We've actually had to travel (as in physically drive to D.C.) to the Library of Congress because it was the only place that had a book.
AnIrishDuck 2y ago
This interconnection is the case in the US as well. It's trivial to get books within the same regional system, and you can do inter library loans for pretty much any other library in the country (though not the Library of Congress, which is the US "library of last resort"). The core "engineer mindset" is solving interesting problems. The core librarian mindset is connecting people with the information they are seeking. That's what drives them.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  It's become difficult to get books "valued" at over $1,000, which is basically any out of print book now thanks to Amazon's bogus valuations.
  - justin66 2y ago
    I peeked at your profile and, well, do you know about OhioLINK? I think maybe you're holding it wrong. The last time I grabbed something rare via OhioLINK it was a twenty year old instructor's manual that accompanies a calculus textbook I own, which they shipped all the way from across the state from some little college's library. It didn't occur to me to calculate the market value of that book. But here's a test... I see seven copies of Asimov's Annotated Paradise Lost "AVAILABLE" for borrowing and... Your request for Asimov's annotated Paradise lost. Text by John Milton, notes by Isaac Asimov. was successful. I fully expect this to go through but I'll make a note here if it doesn't. And hey, you should totally try this yourself, it's an interesting book. (edit: although if we're being honest that's coming from a big Asimov fan, so I'm hopelessly biased. This went out of print after one print run, so it's probably not objectively great.)

trelane 2y ago

Seems relevant: https://www.thefp.com/p/the-truth-about-banned-books https://www.thefp.com/p/the-truth-about-banned-books

hn_acker 2y ago
And I find the article's claims hard to believe. According to the American Library Association, which tracks attempts to ban books from libraries [1]: > The most common justifications for censorship provided by complainants were false claims of illegal obscenity for minors; inclusion of LGBTQIA+ characters or themes; and covering topics of race, racism, equity, and social justice. [1] https://www.ala.org/news/2025/04/american-library-association-kicks-national-library-week-top-10-most-challenged-books https://www.ala.org/news/2025/04/american-library-associatio...