4 ms·

Different but related topic, Hungary has recently moved forward with a program reducing the tax burden of mothers up to I believe exemption from income taxes fo

Different but related topic, Hungary has recently moved forward with a program reducing the tax burden of mothers up to I believe exemption from income taxes for life for those that have 3 or more kids. This seems to be a pretty solid idea with so many people putting off having children due to the associated costs.

mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
On the face of it that sounds like childless taxpayers of all varieties subsidizing people who have many children. That's a "solid idea"?
- svnt 2y ago
  If you want a country in the future, yes.
  - mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
    The actual existential threat to my own country has little to do with how many children people have or what their personal tax burden is.
    - mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
      Well, I guess a lot of the threat is to do with the children and tax burden of one specific man...
    - svnt 2y ago
      This has no relevance to whether fertility rates below replacement can end a country.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    God forbid we relax immigration laws
    - wonderwonder 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
        Immigration laws are not relaxed in Europe. The aftermath of a bunch of middle eastern wars pushed a huge number of people towards Europe, followed by another European war that did the same. The EU allows free movement but it's pretty hard to get a working visa without a job.
        wonderwonder 2y ago
        [flagged]
        disgruntledphd2 2y ago
        Can you provide me some sources on this, please? I don't doubt that there are instances, but I'm not sure that it's particularly common.
        wonderwonder 2y ago
        UK https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... "In 2024, 84,200 applications for asylum were made in the UK, which related to 108,100 individuals" Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=About%20one%20third%20of%20new,than%20those%20born%20in%20Sweden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=... "About one third of new prison inmates in the 2011–2019 did not have Swedish citizenship, where there was an increase in the share from 29% in 2011 to 33% in 2019" https://portal.research.lu.se/en/activities/nearly-two-thirds-of-convicted-rapists-in-sweden-are-migrants-or- https://portal.research.lu.se/en/activities/nearly-two-third... "Nearly two thirds of convicted rapists in Sweden are migrants or second generation immigrants" Feel free to dig deeper into any country in Europe, this was a 2 minutes search. Also many of the countries in Europe will arrest and imprison native born people that openly complain about immigrants. Germany https://www.deccanherald.com/world/german-court-gives-woman-harsher-punishment-than-convicted-rapist-for-calling-him-disgraceful-pig-3086695 https://www.deccanherald.com/world/german-court-gives-woman-... "German court gives woman harsher punishment than convicted rapist for calling him 'disgraceful pig'"
- wonderwonder 2y ago
  I would prefer this than having my country die or resorting to importing millions of people with completely different cultures. Those same 3 kids then go on to become tax payers, ensuring that there is a tax base in the future. So its a long term investment if you actually still want a country. Your view is going to change depending if you look at the short or long term.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    You might not like the culture of the kids raised by moms specifically incentivized by money to have kids, who may or may not be interested or able to raise the kids well. It has always been trivial to pay a woman to give birth. Incentivizing the creation of productive families with well raised children is the difficult part.
    - wonderwonder 2y ago
      Sure, there are positives and negatives to every single situation. But the absolute erasure of the population of a country is my concern. I'm not in the business of telling people how to raise their kids but I support incentivizing people to have kids. You are of course welcome to disagree.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  In the US, the majority of federal government spend is on old people (between social security, Medicare, health services, and VA benefits). https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/ https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder... It’s always been interesting to me that healthcare for kids is not as popular as healthcare for old people, such that there is no Medicare for kids. There is Medicaid, but it pays healthcare providers less…why?
npc_anon 2y ago
That's performative policy. Hungarian mothers of 3 weren't paying much or any taxes at all in the first place. Because on average they have a small or no income. I think a better policy would be to reduce the tax burden of a couple with 3 children. This makes working quite lucrative whilst at the same time it creates the flexibility for the couple to distribute work how they see fit, whether this is a breadwinner model or more hybrid. Pinning this to the mother doesn't work. The policy incentive is to work as much as possible whilst at the same time carrying the burden of 3 children. Not an attractive combination.

mtndew4brkfst 2y ago

On the face of it that sounds like childless taxpayers of all varieties subsidizing people who have many children. That's a "solid idea"?

svnt 2y ago
If you want a country in the future, yes.
- mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
  The actual existential threat to my own country has little to do with how many children people have or what their personal tax burden is.
  - mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
    Well, I guess a lot of the threat is to do with the children and tax burden of one specific man...
  - svnt 2y ago
    This has no relevance to whether fertility rates below replacement can end a country.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  God forbid we relax immigration laws
  - wonderwonder 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
      Immigration laws are not relaxed in Europe. The aftermath of a bunch of middle eastern wars pushed a huge number of people towards Europe, followed by another European war that did the same. The EU allows free movement but it's pretty hard to get a working visa without a job.
      - wonderwonder 2y ago
        [flagged]
        disgruntledphd2 2y ago
        Can you provide me some sources on this, please? I don't doubt that there are instances, but I'm not sure that it's particularly common.
        wonderwonder 2y ago
        UK https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... "In 2024, 84,200 applications for asylum were made in the UK, which related to 108,100 individuals" Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=About%20one%20third%20of%20new,than%20those%20born%20in%20Sweden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#:~:text=... "About one third of new prison inmates in the 2011–2019 did not have Swedish citizenship, where there was an increase in the share from 29% in 2011 to 33% in 2019" https://portal.research.lu.se/en/activities/nearly-two-thirds-of-convicted-rapists-in-sweden-are-migrants-or- https://portal.research.lu.se/en/activities/nearly-two-third... "Nearly two thirds of convicted rapists in Sweden are migrants or second generation immigrants" Feel free to dig deeper into any country in Europe, this was a 2 minutes search. Also many of the countries in Europe will arrest and imprison native born people that openly complain about immigrants. Germany https://www.deccanherald.com/world/german-court-gives-woman-harsher-punishment-than-convicted-rapist-for-calling-him-disgraceful-pig-3086695 https://www.deccanherald.com/world/german-court-gives-woman-... "German court gives woman harsher punishment than convicted rapist for calling him 'disgraceful pig'"
wonderwonder 2y ago
I would prefer this than having my country die or resorting to importing millions of people with completely different cultures. Those same 3 kids then go on to become tax payers, ensuring that there is a tax base in the future. So its a long term investment if you actually still want a country. Your view is going to change depending if you look at the short or long term.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  You might not like the culture of the kids raised by moms specifically incentivized by money to have kids, who may or may not be interested or able to raise the kids well. It has always been trivial to pay a woman to give birth. Incentivizing the creation of productive families with well raised children is the difficult part.
  - wonderwonder 2y ago
    Sure, there are positives and negatives to every single situation. But the absolute erasure of the population of a country is my concern. I'm not in the business of telling people how to raise their kids but I support incentivizing people to have kids. You are of course welcome to disagree.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lotsofpulp 2y ago
In the US, the majority of federal government spend is on old people (between social security, Medicare, health services, and VA benefits). https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/ https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder... It’s always been interesting to me that healthcare for kids is not as popular as healthcare for old people, such that there is no Medicare for kids. There is Medicaid, but it pays healthcare providers less…why?

npc_anon 2y ago

That's performative policy. Hungarian mothers of 3 weren't paying much or any taxes at all in the first place. Because on average they have a small or no income. I think a better policy would be to reduce the tax burden of a couple with 3 children. This makes working quite lucrative whilst at the same time it creates the flexibility for the couple to distribute work how they see fit, whether this is a breadwinner model or more hybrid. Pinning this to the mother doesn't work. The policy incentive is to work as much as possible whilst at the same time carrying the burden of 3 children. Not an attractive combination.