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Interesting data showing a trend of less people wanting children at all. What I want is the reasoning for not wanting children broken down, that is the crux of

Interesting data showing a trend of less people wanting children at all. What I want is the reasoning for not wanting children broken down, that is the crux of the issue and while its good to see a breakdown to the barriers for those wanting children I feel like the not wanting isn't as simple as just no.

dijksterhuis 2y ago
UK survey five years ago - https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/25364-why-are-britons-choosing-not-have-children https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/25364-why-are-britons-... top 5 ranked > too old > don’t want lifestyle changes > too expensive > overpopulation > don’t like children more recently, but free text answers classified by ML model (which seems to removes some nuance in the categories) - https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/51749-why-do-some-britons-not-want-children https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/51749-why-do-some-brit...
- like_any_other 2y ago
  Overpopulation concern is the funniest one of all for the UK: Why Britain needs more migrants - It cannot fix its population-growth slowdown without them - https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/14/why-britain-needs-more-migrants https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/14/why-brit... Britain ‘must rely on immigration’ to compensate for falling birth rate - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/26/rise-in-older-mothers-means-britain-must-rely-on-migration/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/26/rise-in-olde... UK will be reliant on immigration for nearly 80 years due to falling birth rates - https://www.independent.co.uk/world/population-fertility-immigration-uk-b2516198.html https://www.independent.co.uk/world/population-fertility-imm... Birth rates in the UK are now, according to the ONS, at their lowest levels since records began in 1938, at a rate of 1.44 children per woman. With a rapidly ageing population, migrants will be essential to replace UK-born workers - https://www.tradeandbusiness.uk/news/six-reasons-why-the-uk-needs-immigration https://www.tradeandbusiness.uk/news/six-reasons-why-the-uk-... It's like an iterated prisoner's dilemma, but one prisoner refuses to defect or learn anything, despite the other constantly defecting.
  - dijksterhuis 2y ago
    as someone who squarely falls into the “probably don’t want kids because of overpopulation” category — i get the irony you’re trying to point out. but global overpopulation is not the same as national overpopulation. at some point we’re gonna run out of fucking food as a species. * the sooner we can get our heads out of our arses and past the primitive tribalism of “we need to have more than the other lot” as a species, the better. i squarely fall into the “migration is the solution, not the problem” camp too [0]. exactly because of that global perspective. plenty of people in the world. maybe it’s time we learned to share as a species? although fuck all chance of that happening any time soon in the current political climate. * someone usually attempts a retort about “technology will magically save all of us” to this point. which is just kicking the can down the road. [0]: edit to note that the problem i’m referring to here is national underpopulation specifically
    - oezi 2y ago
      Some problems need tackling at the right time. We don't need to get too crazy about declining populations when we are facing more urgent issues. Maybe the world in 2050 will be so different that the issue has resolved itself. Always remember that the world was fine with 2bn people just 100 years ago.
      - dijksterhuis 2y ago
        > Always remember that the world was fine with 2bn people just 100 years ago. we’ve gone from ~2 billion to ~8 billion in 100 years. compared to the (highly estimated) figures from before 100 years ago — that’s a massive increase. the graph is basically a line going straight up compared to the rest of (highly estimated) population data for the last 10k years. and growth is continuing. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population > Maybe the world in 2050 will be so different that the issue has resolved itself “maybe a miracle might happen” — is just kicking the can down the road in my book. we are out of balance with our surrounding environment. there will be a readjustment — whether we choose to make that readjustment ourselves (take responsibility for the problem), or let the readjustment happen (the problem really becomes a problem), is up to us as a species. > Some problems need tackling at the right time. some problems take a really long time and a lot of effort to work on so maybe starting to work on them early and proactively might be a good idea. like climate change. > We don't need to get too crazy about declining populations when we are facing more urgent issues. speaking of climate change, global overpopulation kinda has an impact on it! more people -> use more resources -> screwing up the planet faster
- gaiagraphia 2y ago
  Left high school in the UK thinking that anything connected with family and having children was some type of carnal sin. Seemed the idea of anything traditional was an aboslute taboo to most of the staff. When I compare schooling experiences to people from other countries, it seemed everything was so negative and guilt-ridden in comparison.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    By the way people respond you'd think that the mainstream thinks natalism is the ultimate squick.
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    This is definitely a belief system isolated to certain social classes. Lots of other classes of people thinking having children is great, love going to children's birthday parties, get excited when a relative is expecting a baby, and so forth.
apwell23 2y ago
you are assuming that people who have them are making conscious choice to have them. I live in india and everyone here has them by default, there is no flowchart with a diamond. its just something ppl do, like going to the bathroom. in the west answer is that there are more forms of entertainment and fulfillment available now and there is actually a flowchart with diamond in it.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Even in India, there increasing proportions of adults with no children. It happens everywhere where women gain economic and social freedom. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ind/india/fertility-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ind/ind... https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/increasing-childlessness-driven-by-higher-female-education-in-india/ https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/increasing...
  - apwell23 2y ago
    > Even in India, there are more and more who choose to have fewer, and sometimes no children. thank god!! its suffocating over here. curious why do you think women have gained economic and social freedom in india?
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      Because they have? Gained doesn’t mean they are completely at par with men. But many have increased their agency relative to women in India in decades past. Many can now get an education, have their own income, live by themselves. Not all, obviously a few hundred million are still probably not close to economic freedom, but more are than before.
      - apwell23 2y ago
        sure but how did you relate that to birthrates. did you correlate any datapoints to make that hypothesis about india? like did you look up who many women voluntarily 'live by themselves' in india ?
msteffen 2y ago
I think it’s self-sustaining, in that the needs of people without kids and the needs of people with kids are super duper different. If all your friends don’t have kids and you do, you feel ostracized because they’re not going to rearrange their life over your kids, and you’re constrained by your kids’ schedules (particularly sleep), so you just don’t see them that much anymore. Conversely, if all your friends have kids and you don’t, most of their socializing will probably feel really alien to you (unless you’re a teacher or something and work with kids), so you’ll feel disconnected from them. Anecdotally, in my friend group, once the first two people had kids and started hanging out with each other, it was like the flood gates opened.

dijksterhuis 2y ago

UK survey five years ago - https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/25364-why-are-britons-choosing-not-have-children https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/25364-why-are-britons-... top 5 ranked > too old > don’t want lifestyle changes > too expensive > overpopulation > don’t like children more recently, but free text answers classified by ML model (which seems to removes some nuance in the categories) - https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/51749-why-do-some-britons-not-want-children https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/51749-why-do-some-brit...

like_any_other 2y ago
Overpopulation concern is the funniest one of all for the UK: Why Britain needs more migrants - It cannot fix its population-growth slowdown without them - https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/14/why-britain-needs-more-migrants https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/14/why-brit... Britain ‘must rely on immigration’ to compensate for falling birth rate - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/26/rise-in-older-mothers-means-britain-must-rely-on-migration/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/26/rise-in-olde... UK will be reliant on immigration for nearly 80 years due to falling birth rates - https://www.independent.co.uk/world/population-fertility-immigration-uk-b2516198.html https://www.independent.co.uk/world/population-fertility-imm... Birth rates in the UK are now, according to the ONS, at their lowest levels since records began in 1938, at a rate of 1.44 children per woman. With a rapidly ageing population, migrants will be essential to replace UK-born workers - https://www.tradeandbusiness.uk/news/six-reasons-why-the-uk-needs-immigration https://www.tradeandbusiness.uk/news/six-reasons-why-the-uk-... It's like an iterated prisoner's dilemma, but one prisoner refuses to defect or learn anything, despite the other constantly defecting.
- dijksterhuis 2y ago
  as someone who squarely falls into the “probably don’t want kids because of overpopulation” category — i get the irony you’re trying to point out. but global overpopulation is not the same as national overpopulation. at some point we’re gonna run out of fucking food as a species. * the sooner we can get our heads out of our arses and past the primitive tribalism of “we need to have more than the other lot” as a species, the better. i squarely fall into the “migration is the solution, not the problem” camp too [0]. exactly because of that global perspective. plenty of people in the world. maybe it’s time we learned to share as a species? although fuck all chance of that happening any time soon in the current political climate. * someone usually attempts a retort about “technology will magically save all of us” to this point. which is just kicking the can down the road. [0]: edit to note that the problem i’m referring to here is national underpopulation specifically
  - oezi 2y ago
    Some problems need tackling at the right time. We don't need to get too crazy about declining populations when we are facing more urgent issues. Maybe the world in 2050 will be so different that the issue has resolved itself. Always remember that the world was fine with 2bn people just 100 years ago.
    - dijksterhuis 2y ago
      > Always remember that the world was fine with 2bn people just 100 years ago. we’ve gone from ~2 billion to ~8 billion in 100 years. compared to the (highly estimated) figures from before 100 years ago — that’s a massive increase. the graph is basically a line going straight up compared to the rest of (highly estimated) population data for the last 10k years. and growth is continuing. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population > Maybe the world in 2050 will be so different that the issue has resolved itself “maybe a miracle might happen” — is just kicking the can down the road in my book. we are out of balance with our surrounding environment. there will be a readjustment — whether we choose to make that readjustment ourselves (take responsibility for the problem), or let the readjustment happen (the problem really becomes a problem), is up to us as a species. > Some problems need tackling at the right time. some problems take a really long time and a lot of effort to work on so maybe starting to work on them early and proactively might be a good idea. like climate change. > We don't need to get too crazy about declining populations when we are facing more urgent issues. speaking of climate change, global overpopulation kinda has an impact on it! more people -> use more resources -> screwing up the planet faster
gaiagraphia 2y ago
Left high school in the UK thinking that anything connected with family and having children was some type of carnal sin. Seemed the idea of anything traditional was an aboslute taboo to most of the staff. When I compare schooling experiences to people from other countries, it seemed everything was so negative and guilt-ridden in comparison.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  By the way people respond you'd think that the mainstream thinks natalism is the ultimate squick.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  This is definitely a belief system isolated to certain social classes. Lots of other classes of people thinking having children is great, love going to children's birthday parties, get excited when a relative is expecting a baby, and so forth.

apwell23 2y ago

you are assuming that people who have them are making conscious choice to have them. I live in india and everyone here has them by default, there is no flowchart with a diamond. its just something ppl do, like going to the bathroom. in the west answer is that there are more forms of entertainment and fulfillment available now and there is actually a flowchart with diamond in it.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
Even in India, there increasing proportions of adults with no children. It happens everywhere where women gain economic and social freedom. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ind/india/fertility-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ind/ind... https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/increasing-childlessness-driven-by-higher-female-education-in-india/ https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/increasing...
- apwell23 2y ago
  > Even in India, there are more and more who choose to have fewer, and sometimes no children. thank god!! its suffocating over here. curious why do you think women have gained economic and social freedom in india?
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Because they have? Gained doesn’t mean they are completely at par with men. But many have increased their agency relative to women in India in decades past. Many can now get an education, have their own income, live by themselves. Not all, obviously a few hundred million are still probably not close to economic freedom, but more are than before.
    - apwell23 2y ago
      sure but how did you relate that to birthrates. did you correlate any datapoints to make that hypothesis about india? like did you look up who many women voluntarily 'live by themselves' in india ?

msteffen 2y ago

I think it’s self-sustaining, in that the needs of people without kids and the needs of people with kids are super duper different. If all your friends don’t have kids and you do, you feel ostracized because they’re not going to rearrange their life over your kids, and you’re constrained by your kids’ schedules (particularly sleep), so you just don’t see them that much anymore. Conversely, if all your friends have kids and you don’t, most of their socializing will probably feel really alien to you (unless you’re a teacher or something and work with kids), so you’ll feel disconnected from them. Anecdotally, in my friend group, once the first two people had kids and started hanging out with each other, it was like the flood gates opened.