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SCOTUS ruled in Mathews v. United States (1998) and in Jacobson v. United States (1992) that the government cannot induce a person to commit a crime, then arre

SCOTUS ruled in Mathews v. United States (1998) and in Jacobson v. United States (1992) that the government cannot induce a person to commit a crime, then arrest that individual for that crime. Now the government is rolling out fully-automated entrapment bots.

AzzyHN 1y ago
The constitution prohibits search without a warrant, and cruel and unusual punishment, but here we are. What's "legal" doesn't really matter.
- pixelready 1y ago
  Yes, this is why I get frustrated when people eyeroll about the severity of norm violations in our authority figures. Much of the law-in-practice is not the ink on the page, but the cultural norms around enforcement. By the time you get your vindication in court (assuming the court is acting in good faith), your life has already been turned upside down. The corrupt enforcer gets a slap on the wrist, and goes on to continue violating the law as written, knowing full well that they can basically just practice the law that exists in their head and let the court sort out anyone with the resources to fight for their rights.
- Frieren 1y ago
  > What's "legal" doesn't really matter. It does, as much as always. A different thing is that elected politicians think that does not matter and stop enforcing the law. But it will have consequences. Because just laws that apply to everybody create a very different society with very different capabilities than one that is just a feudal system. The middle ages were not shitty because we forgot how to innovate but they were bad because feudal system kill innovation and creativity at the same time that increase suffering.
hx8 1y ago
In the US there are boundaries in which law enforcement can perform a sting operation. It happens all the time.
netsharc 1y ago
The FBI has been doing a lot of prodding people to say they hate the country, and then telling them to do a bombing, and then providing them with a (fake) bomb, and then telling the public "We caught another terrorist!": https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/07/21/illusion-justice/human-rights-abuses-us-terrorism-prosecutions https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/07/21/illusion-justice/human... Also reminds me of the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/02/gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-michigan-fbi.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/02/gretchen-whitmer...
- Miner49er 1y ago
  Another example: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/an-fbi-informant-seduced-eric-mcdavid-into-a-bomb-plot-then-the-government-lied-about-it/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/an-fbi-informant-seduced...
  - apawloski 1y ago
    If the new person in your friend group suddenly wants everyone to commit an act of terror, chances are they are an FBI agent.
    - pixl97 1y ago
      Well, that or they are dumb and the FBI is watching them already.
      - potato3732842 1y ago
        >Well, that or the feds got them on something else and promised leniency if they become an "informant" and goading you into some bigger bust is part of the deal Fixed to reflect typical federal government procedure.
    - rolph 1y ago
      how about if someone xeno just has to get latched into your life, no matter how much of an arsewhole you act like. in my experience people dont want to socially invest in unknown people, unless a friend, family, social group vouches or introduces you. when you get a clingon, its almost always no good.
gruez 1y ago
>Now the government is rolling out fully-automated entrapment bots. Are we reading the same article? Hand wringing about slippery slopes aside, I skimmed the article and the actual messages that the AI sent are pretty benign. For instance, the "jason" persona seems to be only asking/answering biographical questions. The messages sent by the pimp persona encourages the sex worker to collect what her clients owe her. None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever.
- pixl97 1y ago
  >None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever. Can the system do it is the question. If yes, then the system will eventually be used that way by people seeking promotions by getting a big bust.
- UncleEntity 1y ago
  > None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever. Yeah, I'm sure they're going to put that in their promotional materials...
sdsd 1y ago
With protests, the goal isn't even to arrest + charge people - often, just an excuse to shutdown the protest or revoke a permit would suffice
beloch 1y ago
The U.S. is currently disappearing people to foreign prisons, openly and in flagrant defiance of the courts. Trump has signalled he intends to expand this practice to include U.S. citizens (Just the worst convicted criminals currently in prison, of course.). If this administration can get away with all that, disappearing students who were entrapped by police will probably follow. Foreign students first, then Americans.
- _mlbt 1y ago
  The lack of due process is a big problem, but what if the court in question issues an order that is impossible to legally comply with? The United States has no jurisdiction over citizens of El Salvador in El Salvador. What is Trump supposed to do in this case, call up Pete Hegseth and order a commando style raid on the prison he’s being held in?
  - samman 1y ago
    For El Salvadorian citizens I think you make a good point. But for non-citizens (e.g. Venezuelans)that the US has sent to El Salvadoranean prisons presumably via diplomatic means, it seems reasonable that they could be returned via diplomatic means. [edit] Courts should be able to order a good faith effort to implement those means, but they certainly don’t have any way to guarantee a result.
  - spondylosaurus 1y ago
    If it's impossible to legally comply with orders to bring US residents back from El Salvadoran prisons (which I'm skeptical of, but let's grant that it is truly impossible), then that's probably a sign we should stop sending people there, since it'd be impossible to comply with future orders as well.
    - _mlbt 1y ago
      The person in question is not a legal US resident.
      - 1y ago

AzzyHN 1y ago

The constitution prohibits search without a warrant, and cruel and unusual punishment, but here we are. What's "legal" doesn't really matter.

pixelready 1y ago
Yes, this is why I get frustrated when people eyeroll about the severity of norm violations in our authority figures. Much of the law-in-practice is not the ink on the page, but the cultural norms around enforcement. By the time you get your vindication in court (assuming the court is acting in good faith), your life has already been turned upside down. The corrupt enforcer gets a slap on the wrist, and goes on to continue violating the law as written, knowing full well that they can basically just practice the law that exists in their head and let the court sort out anyone with the resources to fight for their rights.
Frieren 1y ago
> What's "legal" doesn't really matter. It does, as much as always. A different thing is that elected politicians think that does not matter and stop enforcing the law. But it will have consequences. Because just laws that apply to everybody create a very different society with very different capabilities than one that is just a feudal system. The middle ages were not shitty because we forgot how to innovate but they were bad because feudal system kill innovation and creativity at the same time that increase suffering.

hx8 1y ago

In the US there are boundaries in which law enforcement can perform a sting operation. It happens all the time.

netsharc 1y ago

The FBI has been doing a lot of prodding people to say they hate the country, and then telling them to do a bombing, and then providing them with a (fake) bomb, and then telling the public "We caught another terrorist!": https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/07/21/illusion-justice/human-rights-abuses-us-terrorism-prosecutions https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/07/21/illusion-justice/human... Also reminds me of the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/02/gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-michigan-fbi.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/02/gretchen-whitmer...

Miner49er 1y ago
Another example: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/an-fbi-informant-seduced-eric-mcdavid-into-a-bomb-plot-then-the-government-lied-about-it/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/an-fbi-informant-seduced...
- apawloski 1y ago
  If the new person in your friend group suddenly wants everyone to commit an act of terror, chances are they are an FBI agent.
  - pixl97 1y ago
    Well, that or they are dumb and the FBI is watching them already.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      >Well, that or the feds got them on something else and promised leniency if they become an "informant" and goading you into some bigger bust is part of the deal Fixed to reflect typical federal government procedure.
  - rolph 1y ago
    how about if someone xeno just has to get latched into your life, no matter how much of an arsewhole you act like. in my experience people dont want to socially invest in unknown people, unless a friend, family, social group vouches or introduces you. when you get a clingon, its almost always no good.

gruez 1y ago

>Now the government is rolling out fully-automated entrapment bots. Are we reading the same article? Hand wringing about slippery slopes aside, I skimmed the article and the actual messages that the AI sent are pretty benign. For instance, the "jason" persona seems to be only asking/answering biographical questions. The messages sent by the pimp persona encourages the sex worker to collect what her clients owe her. None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever.

pixl97 1y ago
>None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever. Can the system do it is the question. If yes, then the system will eventually be used that way by people seeking promotions by getting a big bust.
UncleEntity 1y ago
> None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever. Yeah, I'm sure they're going to put that in their promotional materials...

sdsd 1y ago

With protests, the goal isn't even to arrest + charge people - often, just an excuse to shutdown the protest or revoke a permit would suffice

beloch 1y ago

The U.S. is currently disappearing people to foreign prisons, openly and in flagrant defiance of the courts. Trump has signalled he intends to expand this practice to include U.S. citizens (Just the worst convicted criminals currently in prison, of course.). If this administration can get away with all that, disappearing students who were entrapped by police will probably follow. Foreign students first, then Americans.

_mlbt 1y ago
The lack of due process is a big problem, but what if the court in question issues an order that is impossible to legally comply with? The United States has no jurisdiction over citizens of El Salvador in El Salvador. What is Trump supposed to do in this case, call up Pete Hegseth and order a commando style raid on the prison he’s being held in?
- samman 1y ago
  For El Salvadorian citizens I think you make a good point. But for non-citizens (e.g. Venezuelans)that the US has sent to El Salvadoranean prisons presumably via diplomatic means, it seems reasonable that they could be returned via diplomatic means. [edit] Courts should be able to order a good faith effort to implement those means, but they certainly don’t have any way to guarantee a result.
- spondylosaurus 1y ago
  If it's impossible to legally comply with orders to bring US residents back from El Salvadoran prisons (which I'm skeptical of, but let's grant that it is truly impossible), then that's probably a sign we should stop sending people there, since it'd be impossible to comply with future orders as well.
  - _mlbt 1y ago
    The person in question is not a legal US resident.
    - 1y ago