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Those videos are occurring because of a major power hypocritically flouting the rules-based international order. In spite of it, not because of it. We know the

Those videos are occurring because of a major power hypocritically flouting the rules-based international order. In spite of it, not because of it. We know the counterfactual of the rules-based order. It's nonstop European warfare in the 19th and the early 20th centuries.

BurningFrog 2y ago
The time between the Napoleon wars and WW1 (1815-1914) was very peaceful in Europe. Absolutely not nonstop warfare!
- fransje26 2y ago
  > (1815-1914) was very peaceful in Europe. Absolutely not nonstop warfare! No, absolutely not. This is factually incorrect.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  Maybe not nonstop warfare, but there was still a lot of violence going on. European powers were engaged in more-or-less nonstop warfare overseas in their empires, but maybe you're excusing that because those weren't in Europe. In Europe itself, you have quite major conflicts in the Franco-Prussian War, Austro-Prussian War, and the Crimean War, plus more minor conflicts around the unification (more like conquest) of Italy, the independence of various Balkan states from the Ottoman Empire starting with Greece, Prussia's war against Denmark. And then you have all of the internal civil wars or strife people usually don't call outright wars, but in the 19th century, were often quite violent. The Revolutions of 1848, for example. Or France switching governments four times (July Monarchy, Second Republic, Second Empire, Third Republic) after the restored monarchy, all of them quite violent transitions. Not to mention the fact that the stresses of urbanization and concomitant social changes provoked a lot of resistance from the lower classes, which was often quite violent. It's not until well into the 20th century that major strikes don't involve lots of bloodshed! 19th century Europe is only peaceful relative to the quite bloody conflicts that bookended the time period, which themselves rank among the bloodiest conflicts in all of human history.
  - BurningFrog 2y ago
    You're listing pretty much all the wars of that era. That adds up to about 5 years or less at war for almost all European countries. Probably the most peaceful century in the history of Europe. During this time, European population also doubled, life expectancy increased by 10-15 years, and GDP/person more than doubled.
    - kxyvr 2y ago
      That's not true. Here's an abbreviated list from: http://historyguy.com/major_wars_19th_century.htm http://historyguy.com/major_wars_19th_century.htm I'm sure there are others. It lists: Greek War of Independence (1821-1832) French invasion of Spain (1823) Russo-Persian War (1826-1828) Russo-Turkish War (1828-1829) Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence (1848-1849) First Schleswig War (1848-1851) Wars of Italian Independence (1848–1866) Crimean War (1854–1856) Second Schleswig War (1864) Austro-Prussian War (1866) Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871) Russo–Turkish War (1877–1878) Serbo-Bulgarian War (1885) Greco–Turkish War (1897) Together, that adds up to multiple decades of war.
      - randallsquared 2y ago
        I think https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-wars-project-mars https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-wars-project-ma... puts this in perspective. The period from 1815 to 1915 was a much more peaceful period measured by deaths in war than 1915 to 2015, though 1975 forward seems like a return to that level (but world population is so much larger now that it's even better than it seems).
      - BurningFrog 2y ago
        We're talking about different things. Counting the years when there was a war anywhere is Europe, you'll end up with a large number. I'm counting how often each country was at war. Several countries had no wars, and even the most war torn country didn't fight for more than 10-15 years.
        2y ago
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > The time between the Napoleon wars and WW1 (1815-1914) was very peaceful in Europe. If, when you talk about "Europe", you exclude Spain and also Greece, the Balkans, and much of Eastern Europe, sure, the powers in "Europe" did most off their fighting in colonial wars in the period rather than at home (they did a quite a lot of fighting in colonial wars, though.)
- wolfi1 2y ago
  Crimean War 1853-1856? Austro-Prussian War 1866? Italian Wars for Independence throghout the 19th century?
  - pasc1878 2y ago
    Franco Prussian War 1871 Danish vs Austri-Hungary and Prussia 1864. Belgian Independence 1831 Civil Wars in SPain 9Carlist War) and Portugal 1830s Revolutions of 1848
- Yeul 1y ago
  Europe was busy conquering their colonial empire.

BurningFrog 2y ago

The time between the Napoleon wars and WW1 (1815-1914) was very peaceful in Europe. Absolutely not nonstop warfare!

fransje26 2y ago
> (1815-1914) was very peaceful in Europe. Absolutely not nonstop warfare! No, absolutely not. This is factually incorrect.
jcranmer 2y ago
Maybe not nonstop warfare, but there was still a lot of violence going on. European powers were engaged in more-or-less nonstop warfare overseas in their empires, but maybe you're excusing that because those weren't in Europe. In Europe itself, you have quite major conflicts in the Franco-Prussian War, Austro-Prussian War, and the Crimean War, plus more minor conflicts around the unification (more like conquest) of Italy, the independence of various Balkan states from the Ottoman Empire starting with Greece, Prussia's war against Denmark. And then you have all of the internal civil wars or strife people usually don't call outright wars, but in the 19th century, were often quite violent. The Revolutions of 1848, for example. Or France switching governments four times (July Monarchy, Second Republic, Second Empire, Third Republic) after the restored monarchy, all of them quite violent transitions. Not to mention the fact that the stresses of urbanization and concomitant social changes provoked a lot of resistance from the lower classes, which was often quite violent. It's not until well into the 20th century that major strikes don't involve lots of bloodshed! 19th century Europe is only peaceful relative to the quite bloody conflicts that bookended the time period, which themselves rank among the bloodiest conflicts in all of human history.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  You're listing pretty much all the wars of that era. That adds up to about 5 years or less at war for almost all European countries. Probably the most peaceful century in the history of Europe. During this time, European population also doubled, life expectancy increased by 10-15 years, and GDP/person more than doubled.
  - kxyvr 2y ago
    That's not true. Here's an abbreviated list from: http://historyguy.com/major_wars_19th_century.htm http://historyguy.com/major_wars_19th_century.htm I'm sure there are others. It lists: Greek War of Independence (1821-1832) French invasion of Spain (1823) Russo-Persian War (1826-1828) Russo-Turkish War (1828-1829) Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence (1848-1849) First Schleswig War (1848-1851) Wars of Italian Independence (1848–1866) Crimean War (1854–1856) Second Schleswig War (1864) Austro-Prussian War (1866) Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871) Russo–Turkish War (1877–1878) Serbo-Bulgarian War (1885) Greco–Turkish War (1897) Together, that adds up to multiple decades of war.
    - randallsquared 2y ago
      I think https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-wars-project-mars https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-wars-project-ma... puts this in perspective. The period from 1815 to 1915 was a much more peaceful period measured by deaths in war than 1915 to 2015, though 1975 forward seems like a return to that level (but world population is so much larger now that it's even better than it seems).
    - BurningFrog 2y ago
      We're talking about different things. Counting the years when there was a war anywhere is Europe, you'll end up with a large number. I'm counting how often each country was at war. Several countries had no wars, and even the most war torn country didn't fight for more than 10-15 years.
      - 2y ago
dragonwriter 2y ago
> The time between the Napoleon wars and WW1 (1815-1914) was very peaceful in Europe. If, when you talk about "Europe", you exclude Spain and also Greece, the Balkans, and much of Eastern Europe, sure, the powers in "Europe" did most off their fighting in colonial wars in the period rather than at home (they did a quite a lot of fighting in colonial wars, though.)
wolfi1 2y ago
Crimean War 1853-1856? Austro-Prussian War 1866? Italian Wars for Independence throghout the 19th century?
- pasc1878 2y ago
  Franco Prussian War 1871 Danish vs Austri-Hungary and Prussia 1864. Belgian Independence 1831 Civil Wars in SPain 9Carlist War) and Portugal 1830s Revolutions of 1848
Yeul 1y ago
Europe was busy conquering their colonial empire.