5 ms·

Employees have always been responsible for managing their own career growth and always will be. How can it be otherwise? It would be foolish for an employee to

by nradov 2y ago

Employees have always been responsible for managing their own career growth and always will be. How can it be otherwise? It would be foolish for an employee to let someone else handle career growth for them as their interests aren't aligned (or even known). If you want help with career growth then find a mentor, don't rely on your manager. Managers should facilitate training to improve employee productivity and help prepare them for a promotion. But that isn't really the same as career growth.

glitchc 2y ago
> Employees have always been responsible for managing their own career growth and always will be. How can it be otherwise? On the contrary, from the 40s to the 70s (possibly well into the 80s) the corporation was heavily invested in your career. Employees were expected to dedicate their lives to the firm, and the firm, in turn, was expected to take care of them. This "free-for-all" employment model is fairly recent. Edit - added source (1993): https://www.pmi.org/learning/library/employers-employees-no-longer-demonstrate-loyalty-5032 https://www.pmi.org/learning/library/employers-employees-no-...
- RoyalHenOil 2y ago
  It didn't stop in the 70s. In many countries in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere, it's still common for businesses to retain employees over the arc of their career.
  - glitchc 2y ago
    Certainly true, my comments are specific to the North American workplace.
- runako 2y ago
  Even the creepy business terminology "human capital" implies something that a business actively wants to grow. That is in stark contrast to how most businesses manage their people today.
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    Not entirely. Businesses don't try to grow things like buildings and inventory, they try to manage them at levels that make sense for their present and projected sales. (So the same sort of mercenary treatment that employees get)
    - runako 2y ago
      Inventory is part of working capital. Companies generally understand that they want to expand working capital. Buildings are often leased and are therefore not capital at all.
      - sokoloff 2y ago
        Companies who pay attention to free cash flow will typically try to manage inventory and non-cash/equivalent working capital down, not up.
  - keeda 2y ago
    I find "human capital" better than "human resources", as it has connotations of something valuable to be invested carefully as opposed to something simply to be consumed and discarded. Of course, in the end it doesn't really matter, it is all Orwellian anyway.
  - hilux 2y ago
    How do you improve your "return on capital"? That's right - by keeping output constant (e.g. through automation) while reducing capital!
- owlstuffing 2y ago
  Outside of government, this shift also coincides with the decline of pensions and the rise of the 401k. Career growth has always been a shared responsibility between employees and employers. In white-collar fields--especially medicine and engineering--education has long been frontloaded, with formal schooling as the main on-ramp. Blue-collar jobs, by contrast, have relied more on trade schools, mentorship, and hands-on training. These pathways have steadily eroded since the 1980s. Much of this traces back to the Open Door Policy with China and the broader Free Trade Agreements that followed. These moved massive segments of industry offshore--along with the structures that once incentivized long-term employee development through education and skill-building. Revitalizing domestic industry could reintroduce competition among employers, which in turn could restore the pre-1990s incentives for long-term investment in the workforce.
  - bcrosby95 2y ago
    It's the same problem in the trades. Apprentices tend to cost the company more than their output so no one wants to hire and train them.
  - thedougd 2y ago
    I would point to the emergence of Milton Friedman’s school of thought that the only thing a company should care for is delivering “shareholder value.”
MisterTea 2y ago
> If you want help with career growth then find a mentor, don't rely on your manager. Your mentors are your peers at work which can include your manager. Career growth is the accumulation of both knowledge and experience which is beneficial to both parties so I dont understand how those are misaligned unless fraud is involved.
- nradov 2y ago
  No, that's not how it usually works (at least not for professional and managerial employees in the US). Mentors are typically more senior, not peers and not someone in the employee's direct chain of command. They may be in an entirely different organization. I don't know how you could believe that career growth interests are aligned between employees and their managers. For the majority of employees, their optimal career path will involve changing companies at some point. This is generally not in their current manager's best interest.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    As a manager, I disagree. It is entirely within my interest to have a direct do better; this provides me a path in the future to switch orgs when they switch orgs. If I level up or leave, I bring them with. If they level up or leave, they potentially bring me with. Team, self, org in descending order of priority. Companies are temporary, network is what carries you until the end of your career. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43698197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43698197 ("The best advice I ever got was from a mentor who told me: Your network is your net worth but only if you give more than you take.")
specialist 2y ago
My bestie works in sales and marketing. Events, promotions, audience engagement. Long time experience with national brands, loves helping local businesses (side hustle). A huge part of her job is recruiting and hiring. Part of her pitch is proactive career development. Paraphrasing: I want you to join our team. I also understand that this job is just one stop on your journey. While you're here, what can I do to help you get the skills and experience you want for your next job? Consequently, she has a HUGE network, built over decades. Something comes up and she knows just the right person. She has her pick of new opportunities. Wouldn't you love to have her as your boss? I've had precisely 2 bosses in my career that had any impulse for nurturing, mentoring, career development. Whereas I've tried to be that kind of boss, given the limits of our current system.
hilux 2y ago
> How can it be otherwise? It was otherwise. And is IS otherwise in many other rich countries, as well as not-so-rich ones. In these places, the employer-employee relationship is more of a relationship and less of a transaction to be reassessed every morning. If you don't believe it, because you've never seen it, then you are probably American, probably young. And seeing other possibilities is a good reason to study (modern!) history, and to travel.

by nradov 2y ago

glitchc 2y ago

> Employees have always been responsible for managing their own career growth and always will be. How can it be otherwise? On the contrary, from the 40s to the 70s (possibly well into the 80s) the corporation was heavily invested in your career. Employees were expected to dedicate their lives to the firm, and the firm, in turn, was expected to take care of them. This "free-for-all" employment model is fairly recent. Edit - added source (1993): https://www.pmi.org/learning/library/employers-employees-no-longer-demonstrate-loyalty-5032 https://www.pmi.org/learning/library/employers-employees-no-...

RoyalHenOil 2y ago
It didn't stop in the 70s. In many countries in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere, it's still common for businesses to retain employees over the arc of their career.
- glitchc 2y ago
  Certainly true, my comments are specific to the North American workplace.
runako 2y ago
Even the creepy business terminology "human capital" implies something that a business actively wants to grow. That is in stark contrast to how most businesses manage their people today.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  Not entirely. Businesses don't try to grow things like buildings and inventory, they try to manage them at levels that make sense for their present and projected sales. (So the same sort of mercenary treatment that employees get)
  - runako 2y ago
    Inventory is part of working capital. Companies generally understand that they want to expand working capital. Buildings are often leased and are therefore not capital at all.
    - sokoloff 2y ago
      Companies who pay attention to free cash flow will typically try to manage inventory and non-cash/equivalent working capital down, not up.
- keeda 2y ago
  I find "human capital" better than "human resources", as it has connotations of something valuable to be invested carefully as opposed to something simply to be consumed and discarded. Of course, in the end it doesn't really matter, it is all Orwellian anyway.
- hilux 2y ago
  How do you improve your "return on capital"? That's right - by keeping output constant (e.g. through automation) while reducing capital!
owlstuffing 2y ago
Outside of government, this shift also coincides with the decline of pensions and the rise of the 401k. Career growth has always been a shared responsibility between employees and employers. In white-collar fields--especially medicine and engineering--education has long been frontloaded, with formal schooling as the main on-ramp. Blue-collar jobs, by contrast, have relied more on trade schools, mentorship, and hands-on training. These pathways have steadily eroded since the 1980s. Much of this traces back to the Open Door Policy with China and the broader Free Trade Agreements that followed. These moved massive segments of industry offshore--along with the structures that once incentivized long-term employee development through education and skill-building. Revitalizing domestic industry could reintroduce competition among employers, which in turn could restore the pre-1990s incentives for long-term investment in the workforce.
- bcrosby95 2y ago
  It's the same problem in the trades. Apprentices tend to cost the company more than their output so no one wants to hire and train them.
- thedougd 2y ago
  I would point to the emergence of Milton Friedman’s school of thought that the only thing a company should care for is delivering “shareholder value.”

MisterTea 2y ago

> If you want help with career growth then find a mentor, don't rely on your manager. Your mentors are your peers at work which can include your manager. Career growth is the accumulation of both knowledge and experience which is beneficial to both parties so I dont understand how those are misaligned unless fraud is involved.

nradov 2y ago
No, that's not how it usually works (at least not for professional and managerial employees in the US). Mentors are typically more senior, not peers and not someone in the employee's direct chain of command. They may be in an entirely different organization. I don't know how you could believe that career growth interests are aligned between employees and their managers. For the majority of employees, their optimal career path will involve changing companies at some point. This is generally not in their current manager's best interest.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  As a manager, I disagree. It is entirely within my interest to have a direct do better; this provides me a path in the future to switch orgs when they switch orgs. If I level up or leave, I bring them with. If they level up or leave, they potentially bring me with. Team, self, org in descending order of priority. Companies are temporary, network is what carries you until the end of your career. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43698197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43698197 ("The best advice I ever got was from a mentor who told me: Your network is your net worth but only if you give more than you take.")

specialist 2y ago

My bestie works in sales and marketing. Events, promotions, audience engagement. Long time experience with national brands, loves helping local businesses (side hustle). A huge part of her job is recruiting and hiring. Part of her pitch is proactive career development. Paraphrasing: I want you to join our team. I also understand that this job is just one stop on your journey. While you're here, what can I do to help you get the skills and experience you want for your next job? Consequently, she has a HUGE network, built over decades. Something comes up and she knows just the right person. She has her pick of new opportunities. Wouldn't you love to have her as your boss? I've had precisely 2 bosses in my career that had any impulse for nurturing, mentoring, career development. Whereas I've tried to be that kind of boss, given the limits of our current system.

hilux 2y ago

> How can it be otherwise? It was otherwise. And is IS otherwise in many other rich countries, as well as not-so-rich ones. In these places, the employer-employee relationship is more of a relationship and less of a transaction to be reassessed every morning. If you don't believe it, because you've never seen it, then you are probably American, probably young. And seeing other possibilities is a good reason to study (modern!) history, and to travel.