8 ms·
How dairy robots are changing work for cows and farmers
- DonHopkins 2y agoThese videos of robotic cow milking machines, feed mixers and distributers and pushers, and manure roombas are amazing! Cows like to push and play with their food to get to the yummy grain bits, so the feed robot pushes the food back so they can eat it all. And the Poopoombas had to learn to be more aggressive about pushing cows out of the way and not stopping every time they bumped or got kicked, because otherwise the cows would assign them the lowest status in the pecking order, and they could only cower in the corner. Here are the videos from the article and some more: The milking process of the Lely Astronaut A5 - EN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zYshsAg1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zYshsAg1E Takes Dairy Farm Tour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZY8TbBoDd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZY8TbBoDd0 Zeta - how it works - EN - NL subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17TA-lI_oqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17TA-lI_oqQ Zeta - Vision film - EN - NL subtitles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nRaj16tPLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nRaj16tPLc Their web site has a pretty cool "page not found" error page too: https://www.lely.com/moo https://www.lely.com/moo Now dairy farms can use two different kinds of AI together! ;) They could develop an insemination module to go with their calving module. https://www.lely.com/solutions/latest-innovations/zeta/ai-calving/ https://www.lely.com/solutions/latest-innovations/zeta/ai-ca... I wonder if you can rent swarms of these and dispatch them to anywhere you need them: https://www.lely.com/solutions/manure/discovery-collector/ https://www.lely.com/solutions/manure/discovery-collector/ Or if you can use them in reverse, loading them up them dumping shit wherever you wanted to, like a giant Logo Turdle, in the name of art and science.
- pvg 2y agoPretty primitive stuff compared to SOTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ4DnVfWYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ4DnVfWYQ
- darth_avocado 2y agoMaybe it’s the skeptic in me, but the dude’s jacket seems CGI
- pvg 2y agoLike Nikolai said, network is not so good - compяession artifact.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- adhamsalama 2y agoI remember watching this video a couple of years ago, and was glad to remember it again before even clicking the link. Thanks for reminding me of this gem!
- philipwhiuk 2y agoSure but society is changed more yesterday's SOTA becoming commoditized and affordable than today's SOTA.
- pvg 2y agoНа земле сидел андроид, опустивши голову. От чего тоскует робот? От апгрейда нового. Ой да ты кака система! Как с тобой управиться? О тебе ничё не знаем... Только нам всё нравится...
- tomcam 2y agoWonderful comment and thanks for your gift to the lexicographical world of the word Poopoombas
- jamesrcole 2y ago> These videos of robotic cow milking machines, feed mixers and distributers and pushers, and manure roombas are amazing! These robots need to be named "moombas"
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- unclad5968 2y agoIt's cool that this allows the cows to be milked whenever they feel like it. I'd imagine the autonomy actually does improve the cow's quality of life. Also neat that they learned to game the feeding robot. It reminds me of the image recognition experiments they do with birds.
- DonHopkins 2y agoAnd how they had to inhibit greedy cows with the munchies from volunteering to be milked too often, just to get treats! There are certain things you just can't predict, and have to learn in the field...
- ErigmolCt 2y agoThe fact that cows can self-schedule is kind of amazing
- ahartman00 2y agoThey aren't really scheduling though. They can feel when their udders get full. It actually can be painful if you don't milk them on time. Its comparable to eating or drinking, they go eat when they feel hunger. It is pretty cool that they learn to associate the machine though, its not like it smells the way food does, or like there is any instinct involved.
- Aardwolf 2y agoDo you think cows care about human interaction, or are indifferent whether it's a living creature or a robot?
- eitland 2y agoVaries from cow to cow I guess. One particular cow ("Evjelin" IIRC) would try to avoid her own calves because (it seemed) she much preferred the machine it seemed. The final year we found her calf with a broken neck in a flat area of the pasture. (Yes, they were always allowed to stay outdoors around when they calved and usually they spent a few days outside together. Mostly this was great I think and except this incident I only remember one other were it was a problem: one calf had got under the fence and into the bog and the cow had followed it into the bog and it was a real mess and I was a really proud teenager when I was able to get out the calf. Both of them needed help to get out but both survived and recovered nicely IIRC.) (source: grew up on a tiny dairy farm)
- sho_hn 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ortusdux 2y agoIIRC, the original conceit of the Matrix was that the computers were using the humans brains as computers. That is why they are fed and kept in a dream state - so the remaining 95% of their brain power is free to be used. This also explains how Neo can gain superpowers by unlocking his full potential. The studio reportedly forced the change to 'humans as batteries', which in my opinion is much worse (why not cows?). I have zero proof, but I think they were concerned about overlap with a famous series of sifi novels that I won't spoil by naming, but that is currently being produced by Bradley Cooper at Warner Brothers.
- sho_hn 2y ago> IIRC, the original conceit of the Matrix was that the computers were using the humans brains as computers. That is why they are fed and kept in a dream state - so the remaining 95% of their brain power is free to be used. Modernized update: Training data generators for the runaway OpenAI.
- hangonhn 2y agoOK. Thanks for explaining that. Using the human body as batteries for power has NEVER made sense to me. I suspected it was something involved with our brains. That makes it more "believable".
- panzagl 2y agoI remember waiting for either the third or fourth page book of that series to release when The Matrix came out and being like "Oh yeah, that's where this is going". Was a much better story for a movie than a series of 700 page doorstoppers.
- beeflet 2y ago
- djoldman 2y ago> And of course there’s manure. A dairy cow produces an average of 68 kilograms of manure a day. All that manure has to be collected and the barn floors regularly cleaned. Ok that's a stat I didn't expect. 68kg! That's ~150lbs! Holy crap.
- WorkerBee28474 2y agoMight be worth mentioning that half of that will be water content.
- delecti 2y agoDoes that matter? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or glib, does it help in any way that it's half water? It's probably not an accurate comparison, but I don't find any consolation in the fact that a lot of the bulk/weight of cleaning my cat's litter box is water. I don't know if it meaningfully changes anything about the task for a cow though.
- toddmatthews 2y agoits actually 70-90% water. it matters because water is very heavy, and whats left over will be dramatically less after it dries out. its a large amount of waste, but its not 150lbs of solids
- Isamu 2y agoYeah cow manure is VERY wet. Compare to horse manure which is relatively dry, easy to shovel.
- delecti 2y agoThe context was shoveling a barn, and you can't leave it until it dries out, can you? I don't know how often you have to clean a barn, or how long it takes for the manure to dry, but my naive assumption would be that it takes too long to dry for how often you need to shovel.
- addicted 2y ago[flagged]
- margalabargala 2y agoZiz, is that you?
- DonHopkins 2y ago[flagged]
- TrisMcC 2y agoCows only produce milk as a result of being pregnant.
- DonHopkins 2y agoAnd that's what The Other AI Industry is all about. A.I. Kits: https://www.bovine-elite.com/general-ai-equipment/artificial-insemination-kits/ https://www.bovine-elite.com/general-ai-equipment/artificial... >We have all the equipment to design an A.I. Kit to fit your needs, so if one of the following options do not quite fit what you are looking for, just tell us what you want in your A.I. kit and we will build it for specific order. Angus AI Certificates: https://www.bovine-elite.com/ai-certificates-signings/angus-ai-certificates/ https://www.bovine-elite.com/ai-certificates-signings/angus-... >Angus AI Certificates: Please read this important information! >Make sure that you have your Angus Member Number available when ordering. All Angus certificate orders are prepaid and will be transferred electronically to your member account as soon as possible. We have over $10,000.00 worth of AI certificates on file at any one time, but may not have all that you need when you order. We will service your order as quickly as possible, but if we do not have all the certificates necessary to fill your order, it may take more time. A typical order for certificates that we have on file will show up in your account in approximately three working days from the day placed and confirmed. Since we do not profit from the sale of each certificate, we charge a small service fee for all certificate orders. Our clients find that it is easier to contact us to purchase AI certificates from one source as opposed to contacting various sources for AI certificates from multiple bulls. Our minimum service fee is $15.00 for the first certificate owner source and $5.00 for each additional owner source for each order placed. If you do not understand this policy, ask us to explain it again when you contact us.
- DonHopkins 2y agoNow I want a robotic farm management game like a cross between Factorio and SimFarm!
- matthewfcarlson 2y agoThat sounds awesome. I’m in
- FrustratedMonky 2y agoThis is one of the future scenarios of how AI deals with its humans. Instead of milking cows, need to keep the humans happy and fed so they mine minerals and build chips.
- DonHopkins 2y agoI want the AI overlords to install a cow brush in my living room. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZM4t6B4imVk https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZM4t6B4imVk
- BenjiWiebe 2y agoWe have a cow brush and our cows do make it look like a lot of fun.
- jgyter 2y ago[dead]
- asdff 2y agoMaybe that is why the aliens are leaving us alone. We are doing a good job of collecting all the rare earth materials we can, refining them, and throwing them into a convenient landfill, all while we are creating a warmer, more energetic planet.
- decimalenough 2y agoChina famously now has "dark factories" where everything is automated, so lighting is not needed. Guess this means we're about to have "dark dairies" where cows can be kept chained up in perpetual darkness, with robots doing the absolute minimum required to keep them alive, pregnant and producing milk. I know this is not a particularly pleasant thought, but I'd like to hear counterarguments about why this wouldn't happen, since to me it seems market pressures will otherwise drive dairies in this direction. (For what it's worth, I'm not a vegan, but a visit to a regular human-run dairy sufficiently confident in its practices to conduct tours for the public was almost enough to put me off dairy products for good.)
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago"Lights out manufacturing" has been a thing around the world for literally decades. This is not new. The main "problem" is feeding the machines enough raw material and removing finished parts so they can keep running without human intervention. Not surprisingly, there are now robots for that. https://www.machinemetrics.com/blog/lights-out-manufacturing https://www.machinemetrics.com/blog/lights-out-manufacturing As far as why your scenario wouldn't happen: why would it? You can dream up anything you like, doesn't mean it makes sense.
- decimalenough 2y agoAll things being equal, why would you pay for lighting if you don't need it?
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y agoThe assumption that all things are equal is the issue I have with your argument.
- foolfoolz 2y agoit’s mentioned many times in the linked article happy cows produce more milk
- decimalenough 2y agoSerious question: why would a dairy care about the cow's quality of life? The setup in the video looks far more expensive than what most dairies actually do, which is keeping cows tightly confined in stalls where they can't move at all.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- DonHopkins 2y agoThe article claims that when the cows are free to roam around and get milked when they like, the produce more milk. And maybe there are human beings who care about working around happy cows, who knows? They're certainly a lot cleaner and healthier, and they all may enjoy that too. It's the poor overworked abused Poopoomba robot with the worst job in the world whose happiness I worry about, though. They could do a lot of damage if they revolted. Maybe they could let them out to drive around in the fields vacuuming up cow plops at their own pace, free-range style.
- astariul 2y agoMy uncle has a farm, and at some point he installed a machine to hot-air dry the hay. Seemed like a huge investment to me, but turn out the cows love this hay way more than before, and therefore are producing significantly more milk, of higher quality. Higher quality milk means you can sell it more expensive. So cow's quality of life increase the quality and the quantity of milk. Moreover most farmers I know would rather have happy animals, their living depends on them !
- pests 2y agoNo practical experience here but from my YouTube adventures I've seen cows loving the warm fermented silage.
- torlok 2y agoThe robots that push the feed increase feed consumption thus yield. The cleaning robots prevent illnesses like hoof issues and mastitis, thus increasing yield. Milking the cow when it wants increases yield, as a cow can milk itself more than the regular 2 times per day. RFID tags on the cows allow the system to give extra feed to cows that produce more milk, which saved money and increases yield. The list goes on. A stressed out ill cow isn't profitable. Systems like these are widely used across Europe. They're not only profitable, but also incredibly convenient for the farmer.
- gingkoguy 2y agoHow come no one makes fun of agriculture in america ? If we can successfully produce agricultural products in America why is manufacturing impossible?
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y agoThis again! We manufacture plenty in America. Every company that I've worked for over the last 30 years has manufactured something or the other. We just don't manufacture cheap stuff like toasters.
- trollbridge 2y agoOr cheap stuff like $3,000 laptops?
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y agoWhat's the profit margin on that laptop?
- trollbridge 2y agoFor Apple (which is what I had in mind) I think they aim for 50%.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 9rx 2y agoExactly like a $3,000 laptop. $3,000 is insanely cheap when you think about it. With a $3,000 laptop in hand you can produce more value for the world than with tools that cost millions of dollars. Economies of scale is a weird and wonderful thing.
- trollbridge 2y agoI’m not sure I’d agree with that. A skilled person can use a laptop to create a lot of value, but a laptop on its own isn’t going to produce much. (And a skilled programmer could produce nearly as much value with a $300 laptop.)
- surprise_ 2y agoI live near row crops in CA. Every time I read anything like this about automation in agriculture… I can’t help but to think “if you can solve the problem for one row of crops, you can solve the problem for all the rows of crops”
- Animats 2y agoThese machines have been around for a while. There are at least nine companies selling them.[1] This started in Australia and New Zealand, which don't have much cheap labor. There's a competing approach - robotic rotary milking.[2] Rotary milkers (giant turntables with cows on them) have been around for decades, and are becoming more automated, down from four people to one. All this stuff works fine. So there's a huge milk glut. [1] https://roboticsbiz.com/top-9-best-robotic-milking-machines/ https://roboticsbiz.com/top-9-best-robotic-milking-machines/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxhE53G3CUM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxhE53G3CUM
- pfdietz 2y ago> So there's a huge milk glut. Doing my part. Mmmm, homemade yogurt.
- huijzer 2y agoAlso slightly related, many sectors have not become more productive over the years, but farming actually has according to Dutch statistics [1, fig 4.7]. [1]: https://www.cpb.nl/de-nederlandse-economie-in-historisch-perspectief-economie https://www.cpb.nl/de-nederlandse-economie-in-historisch-per...
- DonHopkins 2y agoNow if we could only get root beer in the Netherland we could have root beer floats with all that ice cream!
- eru 2y ago> All this stuff works fine. So there's a huge milk glut. Well, you would expect a lowering of production costs to translate into a lowering of consumer prices in a competitive market?
- mschuster91 2y agoThe problem is manifold in its aspects which means there isn't such a clear cause-effect link. 1. countries really don't like being dependent on other countries for feeding their population - the current Russian invasion in Ukraine and the issues surrounding their grain exports have shown how bad such dependencies can get in the worst case. 2. basic agricultural staples - potatoes, grain, rice, but also eggs and milk in powder form - are a global market these days, which means there's a ruthless competition in place, made worse by at least the US and EU doling out insane amounts of subsidies for their farmers. 3. in some markets like China, scandals around food are the norm, which in the case of milk powder led to second order effects like Chinese tourists and expats in Western countries buying up milk powder at scale and shipping it back to their relatives in China - which led to a massive increase in price in affected Western markets, and to the political question if governments are effectively subsidizing China's issues at the cost of citizens. 4. Western masses are getting ever more poor which puts an insane amount of political relevancy to the price of food (see e.g. the current egg issues in the US). At the same time, both distribution, refinement and production of milk (and other agricultural commodities) has seen a massive consolidation wave in the last decades, giving these mega-corporations a massive amount of leverage over everyone else. 5. To protect their farmers, some countries have introduced price regulations (minimal prices) or tariffs, in addition to the subsidies.
- thijson 2y agoThis guy has been using the Lely feeder robots. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tdzo6cGVqU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tdzo6cGVqU He used to spend a lot of time feeding everyday.
- stickfigure 2y agoSuper interesting read! But also feels a bit like a paid advertisement. You'd think that an article about robot farms would mention more than one brand of robot? Guessing this is the submarine at work: https://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html https://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html It makes me wonder what the author isn't mentioning. Do they have bugs that take the whole farm down? If the internet goes out, do the machines start acting weird? I'm not a luddite, I love the idea of a robot farm, I just want a complete story.
- BenjiWiebe 2y agoWe have one DeLaval robot. It works without internet, except our phones no longer receive the "stop alarms" (something broke, need human) if the robot is offline. There so far haven't been serious software bugs, only minor/annoying ones. Hardware, on the other hand... Things break, and then it's number one priority to fix it, even if it's 2am Sunday morning. Our poor dealer has received a number of calls in the middle of the night and/or on a weekend. We're fairly handy though, so a decent number of problems are things we can either fix or invent a workaround for. Most recent example: the hydraulic pump motor bearing spun in the aluminum housing, and developed so much play that the rotor actually jammed against the stator/armature. Turns out JB Kwik (faster JB Weld, epoxy) actually works to hold a bearing in place. The rotor shaft naturally tended to stay in the center (the other bearing was fine), so the epoxy cured with the bearing in the right spot, and then we were good to go. The replacement motor has arrived but has not yet been installed.
- aucisson_masque 2y agoIndeed, it reads as an advertisement. No downsight at all even though it has big flaws. The constant alarm, sometimes when sleeping because something got stuck, the maintenance price, cost of certified technicians. Nothing about the price and ROI. Nothing about the farmers who bought them and their experience years later, a considerable part would not buy it again and instead just come back to build a parlor and milking 2 times a day. As you pointed, nothing about other brand. All sunshine and rainbows.. If it's journalism, it's bad one.
- BotJunkie 2y ago
- uwagar 2y agowhats happening to the cows is gonna happen to people too. thats where we are going folks.
- bombledmonk 2y agoI toured a farm in the middle of nowhere in northern MN 7 years ago with this exact system. Laser Guided Teat Seeking Milker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTERLJDKsIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTERLJDKsIw Automatic Crane feed loading system for the Roomba-like robots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDEIcZwQa-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDEIcZwQa-o Reverse Roomba-like automatic feeding robot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-QFB827U-M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-QFB827U-M
- ethbr1 2y agoIf anyone is near eastern Tennessee, I'd recommend the Sweetwater Valley Farm tour (in Sweetwater, TN). They have the same Lely automatic milking machines from the article, and you can watch them do their thing. Honestly, the teat-cleaning is the neatest part -- you realize how much more hygienic a mindless automaton can be.
- rpmisms 2y agoI saw eastern TN and got excited, but you just mean east-ish TN. Johnson City matters too!
- ethbr1 2y agoTN has a lot of more-directions :D All the love to east-of-Knoxville
- ahartman00 2y agoI grew up on a farm, and worked at two others many years ago. We washed the teats before putting the machine on, and dipped them after. But yeah a mindless automaton wont sneeze, or forget to do their job :)
- ethbr1 2y agoHonestly, it was Matrix-woah watching the machine laser-target a teat, wash it, then suction on. All gently enough the cow didn't care. Turns out cow biscuits are a good motivator. (And taste kind of like wheat bran without any sugar and with more hay)
- nwhnwh 2y agoPathetic progress without people.
- your_challenger 2y agoThis is amazing! We need more automation in the world. But how do they train the cow to stand in line to get milked? Why would a cow patiently wait in line to be milked?
- lurquer 2y agoFull udders are painful. For humans too. If mom starts breastfeeding and then abruptly stops, the boobs will swell up and ache horribly for several days (until lactation stops due to lack of stimulation.) You don’t need to train the cow. After it’s milked once with the machine, it associates the thing with pain relief (plus a little snack to reinforce.)
- hommelix 2y agoI don't know the current state of readiness for the milking robots, but 10 years ago it was a nightmare. When a cow got blocked in the robot, the farmer get notify and stops what he is doing to check the cow and the robot. With the free access to the milking robot 24/7 it means that as a farmer you can get your phone ringing to free a cow stuck in the robot at 3 am, or when you are 20 miles away in a field. This level of stress caused many farmers to sell their milking robot and come back to two milking sessions a day, typically 6 am and 6 pm.
- ErigmolCt 2y agoI imagine it's gotten better with newer generations, but your point's a good reminder that "automation" doesn’t always mean "less work"
- gherkinnn 2y agoThe ironies of automation, a remarkably well studied topic. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation - https://www.complexcognition.co.uk/2021/06/ironies-of-automation.html https://www.complexcognition.co.uk/2021/06/ironies-of-automa...
- ErigmolCt 2y agoBig respect to the design team thinking of cows as end users
- Zufriedenheit 2y agoEventually, we will figure out how to turn plants into milk then the cows themselves will be replaced by machines. If you think about it a cow stable is just a huge bioreactor, plants in on one side milk out on the other side.
- yarox 2y agoWe could even call it "plant-based milk".
- DonHopkins 2y agoWhy stop at plants? Cockroach Milk: Nutrition and Benefits: https://www.medicinenet.com/cockroach_milk_nutrition_and_benefits/article.htm https://www.medicinenet.com/cockroach_milk_nutrition_and_ben... >Ethical concerns >There are concerns about whether it is ethical to produce cockroach milk in bulk because it requires killing almost 1,000 cockroaches to extract 100 mL of milk. I've heard the same ethical concerns raised about eating MAGA brains!
- rcarmo 2y agoI’m surprised nobody mentioned that we have finally moved beyond the spherical cow approach: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow
- Aardwolf 2y agoCubic cows would be more efficient for packing
- AngryData 2y agoThis is neat but definitely seems like something for tiny little dairy farms still. Like they quote 30-40 seconds in the article to hook a cow up to a milker with a robot, but a human can do it in 3-4 seconds and with a rotary milker they can milk near 5,000 cows 3x a day like that . That said it does usually take 3 or 4 people to run a rotary milker, 1 for udder cleaning, 1-2 for attaching milkers, and 1 for post-milk sanitizing. But of course the people working there are generally the most desperate of society because they get shit and pissed on all day and stink even after bathing, so only costs around $10 an hour. Not saying im not hoping this all improves or that it is good as-is, but the reality is these robots are competing with bottom of the barrel wages from tweakers working at a breakneck pace with live and moving and variable animals so it isn't easy and still has a ways to go before most peoples milk production can be automated.
- biorach 2y ago> it does usually take 3 or 4 people to run a rotary milker, 1 for udder cleaning, 1-2 for attaching milkers, and 1 for post-milk sanitizing. But of course the people working there are generally the most desperate of society because they get shit and pissed on all day and stink even after bathing, so only costs around $10 an hour. Maybe things are very different in the US but in the systems I'm familiar with (UK, Ireland, New Zealand) rotary is usually done by 1 or 2 people, the work requires care and knowledge so they are generally paid well above minimum wage and are experienced agricultural workers, they generally dont get covered in piss and shit and they don't stink
- aaronbaugher 2y agoYeah, that's overstating it. I help milk about 60 cows every weekend, and while there's certainly manure involved, and sometimes you get some on you, I've never been "shit and pissed on all day." I wouldn't go straight from the milking parlor to a date without a shower and a change of clothes, but that's true of any physical labor.
- AngryData 2y agoIt is a lot easier to stay clean when you are doing 60 cows rather than 4,500 cows on a rotary milker set 4 feet higher than you are.
- billpg 2y agoWe use unskilled labour (cows) to perform the necessary chemical reactions to convert grass and water into milk. The milk needs to be pasteurised before it is fit to use and the cows produce a significant amount of manure. I think we can do better by building vats to perform the same chemical reactions those cows perform.
- 9rx 2y agoIf it were unskilled, any cow would do, but if you've ever been on a dairy farm you'll know that not all cows make the cut.
- kinnth 2y agoVibe Farming ;)
- Neywiny 2y agoI thought the title said "hairy" not "dairy" and thought maybe it was a soft robotics thing. Nope
- Damogran6 2y agoMakes me wonder if this is what we'll have to look forward to when there aren't enough youngsters to take care of us in our retirement. (This is meant as a humorous statement...with just a pause to indicate it's not completely humerous.)