5 ms·

How does the inexperienced developer become experienced under said circumstances?

by tjpnz 2y ago

alchemist1e9 2y ago
I agree they may not and that’s very interesting. As an experienced developer myself I’m starting to think these tools are likely going to increase our market value not decrease it.
- kemayo 2y ago
  It's not implausible that we'll wind up with something like the extremely long-lasting market for COBOL developers. A niche skill that's absolutely essential in a few places, and which can command high salaries as a result... for a few people. Only so many huge legacy banking systems, after all. The problem, as with COBOL, would be the loss of the existing pipeline that created new competent high-level developers.
  - Maxious 2y ago
    IBM just launched a new mainframe with AI accelerators https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z in part to help rewrite production COBOL into Java https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z
  - animuchan 2y ago
    Sounds fantastic! And it might also help with ageism, when "learned programming long before LLMs" is recognized as a differentiator. I, for one, welcome this change very much, disastrous as it sounds.
  - linsomniac 2y ago
    "The value of 90% of my skills just dropped to $0. The leverage for the remaining 10% went up 1000x." -- Kent Beck
kmoser 2y ago
You can examine the code at any time, ask for an explanation, and even make changes yourself. In other words, you get out of it exactly what you put into it. If you choose to let the AI do all the coding and never dig into the actual code, you'll learn more about how to communicate with an LLM than you will about how to write code.
- vaylian 2y ago
  > ask for an explanation That is risky. The AI might just hallucinate an explanation.
  - Zambyte 2y ago
    So can any human-based sources. A healthy learning experience with AI takes discipline, just as it does with humans.
    - skydhash 2y ago
      The amount of errata in technical books is very small compare to the length of the book. I believe it ranges from none to a page or two.
      - Zambyte 2y ago
        That sounds like a similar failure rate for using newer models in technical contexts. Especially for popular technologies where there are enough resources such that someone other than the original creators could reasonably write a book about it.
      - kmoser 2y ago
        I think that's an oversimplified metric when comparing the ability of an AI to analyze and describe code. Imaging you're reading a book on a challenging new topic. Even if the book is 100% right, there will be many passages you don't understand, and may even misinterpret. A book won't correct you, offer alternate explanations, or break down concepts any further than what was already written. An LLM, for all its flaws, can do these things exceedingly well (provided it has good source material, of course). This gives you the ability to get answers to your questions and correct your mistakes. I'd argue that these benefits far outweigh the errors an LLM makes in breaking down and explaining material, and make an LLM better than a book in many (not all) cases.
linsomniac 2y ago
That is a question that is very near and dear to my heart right now because my son is 15 and very interested in programming. I don't have any good answers yet, but you definitely need to know so many of the core concepts to be able to steer the LLM around pitfalls.

How does the inexperienced developer become experienced under said circumstances?

by tjpnz 2y ago

How does the inexperienced developer become experienced under said circumstances?

I agree they may not and that’s very interesting. As an experienced developer myself I’m starting to think these tools are likely going to increase our market value not decrease it.

kemayo 2y ago
It's not implausible that we'll wind up with something like the extremely long-lasting market for COBOL developers. A niche skill that's absolutely essential in a few places, and which can command high salaries as a result... for a few people. Only so many huge legacy banking systems, after all. The problem, as with COBOL, would be the loss of the existing pipeline that created new competent high-level developers.
- Maxious 2y ago
  IBM just launched a new mainframe with AI accelerators https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z in part to help rewrite production COBOL into Java https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-code-assistant-z
- animuchan 2y ago
  Sounds fantastic! And it might also help with ageism, when "learned programming long before LLMs" is recognized as a differentiator. I, for one, welcome this change very much, disastrous as it sounds.
- linsomniac 2y ago
  "The value of 90% of my skills just dropped to $0. The leverage for the remaining 10% went up 1000x." -- Kent Beck

kmoser 2y ago

You can examine the code at any time, ask for an explanation, and even make changes yourself. In other words, you get out of it exactly what you put into it. If you choose to let the AI do all the coding and never dig into the actual code, you'll learn more about how to communicate with an LLM than you will about how to write code.

vaylian 2y ago
> ask for an explanation That is risky. The AI might just hallucinate an explanation.
- Zambyte 2y ago
  So can any human-based sources. A healthy learning experience with AI takes discipline, just as it does with humans.
  - skydhash 2y ago
    The amount of errata in technical books is very small compare to the length of the book. I believe it ranges from none to a page or two.
    - Zambyte 2y ago
      That sounds like a similar failure rate for using newer models in technical contexts. Especially for popular technologies where there are enough resources such that someone other than the original creators could reasonably write a book about it.
    - kmoser 2y ago
      I think that's an oversimplified metric when comparing the ability of an AI to analyze and describe code. Imaging you're reading a book on a challenging new topic. Even if the book is 100% right, there will be many passages you don't understand, and may even misinterpret. A book won't correct you, offer alternate explanations, or break down concepts any further than what was already written. An LLM, for all its flaws, can do these things exceedingly well (provided it has good source material, of course). This gives you the ability to get answers to your questions and correct your mistakes. I'd argue that these benefits far outweigh the errors an LLM makes in breaking down and explaining material, and make an LLM better than a book in many (not all) cases.

linsomniac 2y ago

That is a question that is very near and dear to my heart right now because my son is 15 and very interested in programming. I don't have any good answers yet, but you definitely need to know so many of the core concepts to be able to steer the LLM around pitfalls.