4 ms·

He's been in jail for a month. If he isn't dead or seriously injured, there is a high likelihood he has had to join MS-13 or Barrio 18 (listed terrorist organi

by ty6853 2y ago

He's been in jail for a month. If he isn't dead or seriously injured, there is a high likelihood he has had to join MS-13 or Barrio 18 (listed terrorist organizations) just to survive while locked up with hardened gang members. Which according to the DoJ would make him ineligible for withholding of removal. Does anyone know if this is true? That could create a real catch-22, toss someone into a prison full of gang members, make them join a foreign terrorist organization to survive, then invalidate their withholding because they are now a terrorist.

Hamuko 2y ago
They had no proof that he was a terrorist in the first place, so I'm not really sure if they're concerned about him joining or not.
- ty6853 2y ago
  But forcing him to join by surrounding him with gang members who would otherwise harm him, might be effective in killing his withholding of removal order, even if they have to drag him back to get it done. 1) "This guy is gang member." 2) Toss in jail, surrounded by the gang members he tried to escape. (Even if El Salvador thing gets stopped, same plan works in US) 3) Gang forces him to join 4) Now part of terrorist organization 5) "Terrorists are ineligible for orders of withholding."
  - kyleee 2y ago
    [flagged]
- UncleMeat 2y ago
  Well, he did wear some chicago bulls gear (I wish I were kidding, this is legitimately one of the pieces of evidence offered by the government).
yread 2y ago
I've wondered since the start of this thing: why didn't anyone object to labelling MS-13, an ordinary gang, "a terrorist organization"? Especially, since even Trump admitted they did it so that they can go harder after them? I.e. not because they are actual terrorists, but just so they could apply the harsher terrorism laws against them. "We're using 'terrorism' which gives us extra strength. We've done a great job with MS-13, but now we're stepping it up to an even higher level."
- ty6853 2y ago
  If you read the last DoJ filing in the Garcia case, they claim the law invalidates orders of withholding for members of FTOs. I do not know if that is true or not, but I'm willing to believe it is. So your question has been elucidated. They did it so they could invalidate parole or orders of withholding of removal by either labeling immigrants as in MS-13 or forcing them to join by tossing them in jail with gangs and then using it against them. It was a necessary precursor to the deportations.
- yencabulator 2y ago
  Same reason US has been in a continuous "state of emergency" for I don't even care how many decades. More power, less oversight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...
legitster 2y ago
This is already a reality for the US prison system. It's really good at turning low-level criminals into dangerous ones.
dfxm12 2y ago
What's true is that Trump's response here shows the mental gymnastics you're referring to are superfluous. The facts, laws, due process, etc. simply don't apply anymore.
matwood 2y ago
My speculation all along has been that he's already dead. Among other reasons, it's one of the main reasons they are fighting not only his return but any other type of hearing that he could attend.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  If alive, as a prisoner, he would now have an awareness of the operations of the CECOT prison that would be too harmful for the El Salvador government to let the world know. If so, this would imply that no one can ever be released from CECOT. Wikipedia says as much: > The Salvadoran government does not plan to release any prisoner from CECOT,[19] and Minister of Justice and Public Security Gustavo Villatoro has stated that prisoners incarcerated at CECOT will never return to their communities. It strictly and literally is a one-way destination.
- llm_nerd 2y ago
  They are fighting his return out of absolutely hubris. They are pissing on the constitution, multiple levels of court, and even the Supreme Court. They're seeing what they can get away with. I don't care how violently stupid someone is in their support of this garbage administration, if even the smooth-brained Trump supporter doesn't realize how grotesquely anti-American and dangerous this is, they aren't paying attention.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  It makes sense as there was the previous judicial order that he was NOT to be returned to El Salvador due to the risk of him being injured/killed by the gang members.

by ty6853 2y ago

Hamuko 2y ago

They had no proof that he was a terrorist in the first place, so I'm not really sure if they're concerned about him joining or not.

ty6853 2y ago
But forcing him to join by surrounding him with gang members who would otherwise harm him, might be effective in killing his withholding of removal order, even if they have to drag him back to get it done. 1) "This guy is gang member." 2) Toss in jail, surrounded by the gang members he tried to escape. (Even if El Salvador thing gets stopped, same plan works in US) 3) Gang forces him to join 4) Now part of terrorist organization 5) "Terrorists are ineligible for orders of withholding."
- kyleee 2y ago
  [flagged]
UncleMeat 2y ago
Well, he did wear some chicago bulls gear (I wish I were kidding, this is legitimately one of the pieces of evidence offered by the government).

yread 2y ago

I've wondered since the start of this thing: why didn't anyone object to labelling MS-13, an ordinary gang, "a terrorist organization"? Especially, since even Trump admitted they did it so that they can go harder after them? I.e. not because they are actual terrorists, but just so they could apply the harsher terrorism laws against them. "We're using 'terrorism' which gives us extra strength. We've done a great job with MS-13, but now we're stepping it up to an even higher level."

ty6853 2y ago
If you read the last DoJ filing in the Garcia case, they claim the law invalidates orders of withholding for members of FTOs. I do not know if that is true or not, but I'm willing to believe it is. So your question has been elucidated. They did it so they could invalidate parole or orders of withholding of removal by either labeling immigrants as in MS-13 or forcing them to join by tossing them in jail with gangs and then using it against them. It was a necessary precursor to the deportations.
yencabulator 2y ago
Same reason US has been in a continuous "state of emergency" for I don't even care how many decades. More power, less oversight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...

legitster 2y ago

This is already a reality for the US prison system. It's really good at turning low-level criminals into dangerous ones.

dfxm12 2y ago

What's true is that Trump's response here shows the mental gymnastics you're referring to are superfluous. The facts, laws, due process, etc. simply don't apply anymore.

matwood 2y ago

My speculation all along has been that he's already dead. Among other reasons, it's one of the main reasons they are fighting not only his return but any other type of hearing that he could attend.

OutOfHere 2y ago
If alive, as a prisoner, he would now have an awareness of the operations of the CECOT prison that would be too harmful for the El Salvador government to let the world know. If so, this would imply that no one can ever be released from CECOT. Wikipedia says as much: > The Salvadoran government does not plan to release any prisoner from CECOT,[19] and Minister of Justice and Public Security Gustavo Villatoro has stated that prisoners incarcerated at CECOT will never return to their communities. It strictly and literally is a one-way destination.
llm_nerd 2y ago
They are fighting his return out of absolutely hubris. They are pissing on the constitution, multiple levels of court, and even the Supreme Court. They're seeing what they can get away with. I don't care how violently stupid someone is in their support of this garbage administration, if even the smooth-brained Trump supporter doesn't realize how grotesquely anti-American and dangerous this is, they aren't paying attention.
ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
It makes sense as there was the previous judicial order that he was NOT to be returned to El Salvador due to the risk of him being injured/killed by the gang members.