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Isn’t Guantanamo something similar? At least the government didn’t pretend they can’t they just don’t want to

by croes 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
KerrAvon 2y ago
Yes, but Guantanamo should have been closed (Obama promised to do this! he didn't do it!) and the people who masterminded it should have been thrown in jail. But, no, we had to "look forward" and not punish the war criminals in our immediate past.
- xnx 2y ago
  > Obama promised to do this! he didn't do it! True, but important to know that Republican congress stopped every attempt he made. He still got the number of prisoners down from 242 to 55.
  - croes 2y ago
    Didn’t some Democrats help stopping?
    - i80and 2y ago
      The EO was signed in 2009. The 2009-2011 Congress was Democratically controlled.
      - alabastervlog 2y ago
        "Close our terrible and unnecessary human rights black hole" was, sadly, too far "left" for a bunch of Democrats, and of course Republicans love that kind of stuff, so they weren't going to help.
  - femiagbabiaka 2y ago
    This trend of: > Democrats fail to do something > it's because they universally wanted to but were obstructed. Doesn't really work in a post-Trump era. They could've done whatever they wanted to, if they were willing to try.
- i80and 2y ago
  Obama did sign EO 13492 requiring Guantanamo to be closed, in fairness, with a deadline and everything. He could have and should have done more, but the blame for that one mostly falls on Congress (at the time firmly controlled by Democrats) blocking said EO
UncleMeat 2y ago
Guantanamo is indeed a horrible authoritarian injustice but it is not the same. Gitmo is operated by the US government and people detained there can still have access to legal representation to challenge their detainment. What is happening here is the US government sending people to a gulag operated by a foreign nation and then insisting that that's the end of it. There can be no meaningful challenge of your unlawful detainment. With CECOT your only opportunity to vindicate your rights is at the literal moment that you are grabbed off the street.
- croes 2y ago
  That’s why I wrote similar especially under Bush. One of the milestones in the fall of human rights in the west.
wtallis 2y ago
Guantanamo was Bush's attempt to circumvent habeas corpus by imprisoning people outside the country. The Supreme Court didn't let him get away with that. The El Salvador strategy is the logical next step to avoid habeas corpus, by using a prison that is foreign-operated not just located in a foreign country.
- rich_sasha 2y ago
  With no endorsement of what went on in Gitmo, at least it was mostly people accused of truly terrible crimes. Isn't the Salvador cohort literally mostly random people? EDIT: by "random people" I meant the ones deported from the US, not people arrested in El Salvador.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    The accusation is that they are gang members or terrorists. Unfortunately, looking at the accusation doesn't really change what is going on here.
    - rich_sasha 2y ago
      Well, I think two horrible things can be unequal, one can be more horrible than the other.
  - croes 2y ago
    Guantanamo: random people accused of being part of Al-Qaeda El Salvador: random people accused of being part of Tren de Aragua
  - ty6853 2y ago
    No, most of CECOT is prisoners arrested within El Salvador. Only a small section is previously US domiciled persons. The US only funded 300 of the available 40,000 slots. Most of them were from domestic gang round-ups, though I'm sure that process was highly imperfect. So Mr. Garcia will be surrounded by a gigantic cohort of legitimate, full body 'MS-13' tattood, hard hitting gang members. If he wasn't in a gang before he likely is now, or getting the living shit beat out of him because he lacks gang protection.
drewcoo 2y ago
Gitmo is a US naval base, thus considered American soil by US authorities. That's the difference. Well . . . a difference. Something like 95% of Gitmo detainees were eventually determined not to be terrorists and were freed. I expect No Salvador to be a bit worse.

Isn’t Guantanamo something similar? At least the government didn’t pretend they can’t they just don’t want to

by croes 2y ago

Isn’t Guantanamo something similar? At least the government didn’t pretend they can’t they just don’t want to

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

KerrAvon 2y ago

Yes, but Guantanamo should have been closed (Obama promised to do this! he didn't do it!) and the people who masterminded it should have been thrown in jail. But, no, we had to "look forward" and not punish the war criminals in our immediate past.

xnx 2y ago
> Obama promised to do this! he didn't do it! True, but important to know that Republican congress stopped every attempt he made. He still got the number of prisoners down from 242 to 55.
- croes 2y ago
  Didn’t some Democrats help stopping?
  - i80and 2y ago
    The EO was signed in 2009. The 2009-2011 Congress was Democratically controlled.
    - alabastervlog 2y ago
      "Close our terrible and unnecessary human rights black hole" was, sadly, too far "left" for a bunch of Democrats, and of course Republicans love that kind of stuff, so they weren't going to help.
- femiagbabiaka 2y ago
  This trend of: > Democrats fail to do something > it's because they universally wanted to but were obstructed. Doesn't really work in a post-Trump era. They could've done whatever they wanted to, if they were willing to try.
i80and 2y ago
Obama did sign EO 13492 requiring Guantanamo to be closed, in fairness, with a deadline and everything. He could have and should have done more, but the blame for that one mostly falls on Congress (at the time firmly controlled by Democrats) blocking said EO

UncleMeat 2y ago

Guantanamo is indeed a horrible authoritarian injustice but it is not the same. Gitmo is operated by the US government and people detained there can still have access to legal representation to challenge their detainment. What is happening here is the US government sending people to a gulag operated by a foreign nation and then insisting that that's the end of it. There can be no meaningful challenge of your unlawful detainment. With CECOT your only opportunity to vindicate your rights is at the literal moment that you are grabbed off the street.

croes 2y ago
That’s why I wrote similar especially under Bush. One of the milestones in the fall of human rights in the west.

wtallis 2y ago

Guantanamo was Bush's attempt to circumvent habeas corpus by imprisoning people outside the country. The Supreme Court didn't let him get away with that. The El Salvador strategy is the logical next step to avoid habeas corpus, by using a prison that is foreign-operated not just located in a foreign country.

rich_sasha 2y ago
With no endorsement of what went on in Gitmo, at least it was mostly people accused of truly terrible crimes. Isn't the Salvador cohort literally mostly random people? EDIT: by "random people" I meant the ones deported from the US, not people arrested in El Salvador.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  The accusation is that they are gang members or terrorists. Unfortunately, looking at the accusation doesn't really change what is going on here.
  - rich_sasha 2y ago
    Well, I think two horrible things can be unequal, one can be more horrible than the other.
- croes 2y ago
  Guantanamo: random people accused of being part of Al-Qaeda El Salvador: random people accused of being part of Tren de Aragua
- ty6853 2y ago
  No, most of CECOT is prisoners arrested within El Salvador. Only a small section is previously US domiciled persons. The US only funded 300 of the available 40,000 slots. Most of them were from domestic gang round-ups, though I'm sure that process was highly imperfect. So Mr. Garcia will be surrounded by a gigantic cohort of legitimate, full body 'MS-13' tattood, hard hitting gang members. If he wasn't in a gang before he likely is now, or getting the living shit beat out of him because he lacks gang protection.

drewcoo 2y ago

Gitmo is a US naval base, thus considered American soil by US authorities. That's the difference. Well . . . a difference. Something like 95% of Gitmo detainees were eventually determined not to be terrorists and were freed. I expect No Salvador to be a bit worse.