7 ms·

What he meant is that the whole capitalist culture, less regulations, creates a more thriving economy which creates more jobs and hence more options to go to.

hnlmorg 1y ago
I've heard this type of comment a lot but in my experience there isn't any shortage of tech companies in the EU. What EU regulations hamper isn't job creation, it's employee and customer exploitation. The distinction between "job creation" and "employee exploitation" is important. What the former means in practice is that there is a massive contractor market in the UK and EU. So if companies need temporary staff, they'll hire a contractor. If they need permanent staff then they'll hire an employee. And contractors in the UK & EU are paid significantly more than their employee peers. In fact their pay is much more equivalent to US employees. So companies will make constant tradeoffs between more expensive labor for short-lived projects vs cheaper staff and knowledge retention but stricter employment laws. It's a fair trade most of the time. So a more accurate way of comparing US vs EU businesses in terms of employees would be US employees vs EU contractors. Things then begin to look a lot more equivalent.
- scarface_74 1y ago
  I doubt the tech workers making three to four times EU wages in the US feel “exploited”. My job is purely transactional. I’ve worked for 10 companies in almost 30 years. I gave them labor and they gave me money. Whenever one side decided the arrangement wasn’t working, I moved on to another job.
  - hnlmorg 1y ago
    You're focusing on one word and missing the meat of my comment. The EU equivalent to US employment in terms of employee rights and pay is contracting. People in IT who take the employment route rather than contracting, do so because they want job security. eg they might have families. And much as you might be happy with your arrangement, there are plenty in the UK and Europe who do prefer longer-term job security over a few extra £££ in their pocket.
    - JustExAWS 1y ago
      I also have a family. I’ve managed to support my family across those 10 jobs. I need a job to support my family. But my duty is stay *employable”.
      - hnlmorg 1y ago
        You misunderstand me. My comment wasn't suggesting that people who contract don't have families. Plenty of them do. It's that people who choose employment over contracting do so because they want the additional stability, for example if they have families. Lots of people, when evaluating the risks of contracting vs employment, find the reward far outweighs the risk. It sounds like you'd be one of them if you were presented with the same choice. And that's a fine decision for you to come to. But that's not going to be the same conclusion for everyone.
        JustExAWS 1y ago
        What I’m saying is simple math. I would much rather make more than twice the equivalent worker in the EU and take the chance of a layoff. I can afford to have my own emergency fund to survive the gap in employment. Every employee in the US is “at will”.
    - varispeed 1y ago
      In the UK you have worst of both worlds now - insecurity of contracting and employee level wages, thanks to amended IR35 lobbied by big consultancies.
      - hnlmorg 1y ago
        I think the bust of the job market played a bigger part here. When IR35 originally came in, some companies would bump pay inside IR35 to compensate elsewhere risk getting poorer pol of talent. Since the job market crashed there have been fewer jobs all round, which has pushed the contractor market down too. But you’re right that IR35 really hasn’t helped situations either. Some of my friends have commented that the last few years has been the worst time in their 20+ years as a contractor.
  - Spooky23 1y ago
    Tech is always boom/bust. We’re lucky to have had a long boom. I’m personally well acquainted with many people in tech, especially big tech. Many of them are doing little or nothing, certainly not justifying $300k+ salaries. What you do has risk but is fundamentally more honest - your skills are around technology and output, not navigating corporate bureaucracy.
    - margorczynski 1y ago
      Your post somehow suggests that when a bust comes European companies won't start laying off people. And in the same boom period the US dev will make much more money (and have a biggger safety pillow) than the European one.
      - Ancalagon 1y ago
        Until the US dev has a medical expense, that is.
        scarface_74 1y ago
        A cursory amount of research shows that the average premium for an insurance policy on the open market through the ACA is between $400-$2000 a month depending on options - family status, deductibles etc. There is also COBRA that lets you stay on your employer’s plan. You have to pay the entire premium. I pay $600 a month now and my employer pays $1200 a month. That’s me + family.
        margorczynski 1y ago
        I think a lot of you guys from the US don't really get how high the taxes are here that pay for this stuff, especially for people that make more than the average. If you would work non-contract here in Poland for an equivalent of ~$120k you would pay around $1k USD. If your wife is working she will also pay, of course this also covers all you kids. So lets say both of you make around $120k here - so you would pay $2k monthly for "free" healthcare and its quality is atrocious. Even for serious stuff you many times need to wait 1-2 years for something, all hospitals are understaffed, the care quality is abysmal. If you are ambitious and make good money the US is better. Europe in general is better for people that don't aim too high and want the state to enforce some minimum of QoL for them at the expense of the rest.
- apwell23 1y ago
  this doesn't make sense. so why do usa companies hire contractors then? I worked as a contractor for decades and made 150% what perm employees made.
  - hnlmorg 1y ago
    That I don't know. But the contractor market in the US is very different to the contractor market in the UK and EU. And from hiring in both US and UK, my experiences have been that US employees are more comparable to UK contractors in terms of rights and pay.
    - apwell23 1y ago
      > US employees are more comparable to UK contractors in terms of rights and pay did you account for rsu value too or just basepay/hours . now that i am a perm employee a big share of my comp comes from rsu.
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 1y ago
        I think they suggested that in the US employees are paid better than contractors, but have low job security.
        saagarjha 1y ago
        I feel that the opposite is the case.
  - amalcon 1y ago
    There are more regulations around employees than contractors here also, which often makes it not worthwhile for short term workers. Those regulations just mostly aren't around when you may terminate employment. E.g. the entire I-9 thing and other IRS paperwork, who (if anyone) is responsible for various insurances (unemployment insurance, workers comp, liability insurance, etc), minimum wage and overtime for hourly employees, etc. Many things depend on this distinction. I can't speak to differences from Europe as I am not familiar with that side of the Atlantic.
tempfile 1y ago
Indeed, but that is just ideology, not based on any facts.
- apwell23 1y ago
  low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact.
  - perching_aix 1y ago
    > low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact. Does it? Sounds more like an opinion than a fact to me.
    - zorked 1y ago
      If there was demand the salaries would rise. It's capitalism.
      - oblio 1y ago
        Umm... output. Outside of hyperscalers and probably the tier below them, most EU tech companies aren't making the kind of money per headcount to justify huge salaries. There is demand for tech workers, but the output of EU tech companies can't afford huge salaries. Lower margins.
  - Scandiravian 1y ago
    There's a higher monthly salary in the US, sure. However, you're expected to work very long hours (60-80 hours per week) and get basically no time off In my current position I'm hired for an expected 37 hours per week. This can be more if I'm asked to work overtime, but my weekly hours cannot exceed 45 hours per week on average in a 3 month window without additional compensation Additionally I have six weeks of paid time off every year plus public holidays If I calculate my hourly salary it's better than what I was paid by US companies That's not to mention the security of having a legally mandated termination period of minimum 3 months (in which you're, in most cases, not expected to work)
homefree 1y ago
Yeah I’d argue this is so clearly the case and it’s one reason among many why the US has an enormous amount of successful tech companies and Europe has some amount that basically rounds to zero in comparison. The ability to hire and fire easily is critical if you want to build successful companies. There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Europe has made really bad policy decisions around this for decades and their economy reflects it. Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand.
- disgruntledphd2 1y ago
  > There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Yes, and it's because of larger, more liquid capital markets make it much easier to obtain VC funding. > Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand. Europe is definitely not poor in terms of either wealth or income (particularly Western Europe, which is the appropriate comparator for the US).

hnlmorg 1y ago

I've heard this type of comment a lot but in my experience there isn't any shortage of tech companies in the EU. What EU regulations hamper isn't job creation, it's employee and customer exploitation. The distinction between "job creation" and "employee exploitation" is important. What the former means in practice is that there is a massive contractor market in the UK and EU. So if companies need temporary staff, they'll hire a contractor. If they need permanent staff then they'll hire an employee. And contractors in the UK & EU are paid significantly more than their employee peers. In fact their pay is much more equivalent to US employees. So companies will make constant tradeoffs between more expensive labor for short-lived projects vs cheaper staff and knowledge retention but stricter employment laws. It's a fair trade most of the time. So a more accurate way of comparing US vs EU businesses in terms of employees would be US employees vs EU contractors. Things then begin to look a lot more equivalent.

scarface_74 1y ago
I doubt the tech workers making three to four times EU wages in the US feel “exploited”. My job is purely transactional. I’ve worked for 10 companies in almost 30 years. I gave them labor and they gave me money. Whenever one side decided the arrangement wasn’t working, I moved on to another job.
- hnlmorg 1y ago
  You're focusing on one word and missing the meat of my comment. The EU equivalent to US employment in terms of employee rights and pay is contracting. People in IT who take the employment route rather than contracting, do so because they want job security. eg they might have families. And much as you might be happy with your arrangement, there are plenty in the UK and Europe who do prefer longer-term job security over a few extra £££ in their pocket.
  - JustExAWS 1y ago
    I also have a family. I’ve managed to support my family across those 10 jobs. I need a job to support my family. But my duty is stay *employable”.
    - hnlmorg 1y ago
      You misunderstand me. My comment wasn't suggesting that people who contract don't have families. Plenty of them do. It's that people who choose employment over contracting do so because they want the additional stability, for example if they have families. Lots of people, when evaluating the risks of contracting vs employment, find the reward far outweighs the risk. It sounds like you'd be one of them if you were presented with the same choice. And that's a fine decision for you to come to. But that's not going to be the same conclusion for everyone.
      - JustExAWS 1y ago
        What I’m saying is simple math. I would much rather make more than twice the equivalent worker in the EU and take the chance of a layoff. I can afford to have my own emergency fund to survive the gap in employment. Every employee in the US is “at will”.
  - varispeed 1y ago
    In the UK you have worst of both worlds now - insecurity of contracting and employee level wages, thanks to amended IR35 lobbied by big consultancies.
    - hnlmorg 1y ago
      I think the bust of the job market played a bigger part here. When IR35 originally came in, some companies would bump pay inside IR35 to compensate elsewhere risk getting poorer pol of talent. Since the job market crashed there have been fewer jobs all round, which has pushed the contractor market down too. But you’re right that IR35 really hasn’t helped situations either. Some of my friends have commented that the last few years has been the worst time in their 20+ years as a contractor.
- Spooky23 1y ago
  Tech is always boom/bust. We’re lucky to have had a long boom. I’m personally well acquainted with many people in tech, especially big tech. Many of them are doing little or nothing, certainly not justifying $300k+ salaries. What you do has risk but is fundamentally more honest - your skills are around technology and output, not navigating corporate bureaucracy.
  - margorczynski 1y ago
    Your post somehow suggests that when a bust comes European companies won't start laying off people. And in the same boom period the US dev will make much more money (and have a biggger safety pillow) than the European one.
    - Ancalagon 1y ago
      Until the US dev has a medical expense, that is.
      - scarface_74 1y ago
        A cursory amount of research shows that the average premium for an insurance policy on the open market through the ACA is between $400-$2000 a month depending on options - family status, deductibles etc. There is also COBRA that lets you stay on your employer’s plan. You have to pay the entire premium. I pay $600 a month now and my employer pays $1200 a month. That’s me + family.
      - margorczynski 1y ago
        I think a lot of you guys from the US don't really get how high the taxes are here that pay for this stuff, especially for people that make more than the average. If you would work non-contract here in Poland for an equivalent of ~$120k you would pay around $1k USD. If your wife is working she will also pay, of course this also covers all you kids. So lets say both of you make around $120k here - so you would pay $2k monthly for "free" healthcare and its quality is atrocious. Even for serious stuff you many times need to wait 1-2 years for something, all hospitals are understaffed, the care quality is abysmal. If you are ambitious and make good money the US is better. Europe in general is better for people that don't aim too high and want the state to enforce some minimum of QoL for them at the expense of the rest.
apwell23 1y ago
this doesn't make sense. so why do usa companies hire contractors then? I worked as a contractor for decades and made 150% what perm employees made.
- hnlmorg 1y ago
  That I don't know. But the contractor market in the US is very different to the contractor market in the UK and EU. And from hiring in both US and UK, my experiences have been that US employees are more comparable to UK contractors in terms of rights and pay.
  - apwell23 1y ago
    > US employees are more comparable to UK contractors in terms of rights and pay did you account for rsu value too or just basepay/hours . now that i am a perm employee a big share of my comp comes from rsu.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 1y ago
      I think they suggested that in the US employees are paid better than contractors, but have low job security.
      - saagarjha 1y ago
        I feel that the opposite is the case.
- amalcon 1y ago
  There are more regulations around employees than contractors here also, which often makes it not worthwhile for short term workers. Those regulations just mostly aren't around when you may terminate employment. E.g. the entire I-9 thing and other IRS paperwork, who (if anyone) is responsible for various insurances (unemployment insurance, workers comp, liability insurance, etc), minimum wage and overtime for hourly employees, etc. Many things depend on this distinction. I can't speak to differences from Europe as I am not familiar with that side of the Atlantic.

tempfile 1y ago

Indeed, but that is just ideology, not based on any facts.

apwell23 1y ago
low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact.
- perching_aix 1y ago
  > low eu salaries implies finding job is hard. fact. Does it? Sounds more like an opinion than a fact to me.
  - zorked 1y ago
    If there was demand the salaries would rise. It's capitalism.
    - oblio 1y ago
      Umm... output. Outside of hyperscalers and probably the tier below them, most EU tech companies aren't making the kind of money per headcount to justify huge salaries. There is demand for tech workers, but the output of EU tech companies can't afford huge salaries. Lower margins.
- Scandiravian 1y ago
  There's a higher monthly salary in the US, sure. However, you're expected to work very long hours (60-80 hours per week) and get basically no time off In my current position I'm hired for an expected 37 hours per week. This can be more if I'm asked to work overtime, but my weekly hours cannot exceed 45 hours per week on average in a 3 month window without additional compensation Additionally I have six weeks of paid time off every year plus public holidays If I calculate my hourly salary it's better than what I was paid by US companies That's not to mention the security of having a legally mandated termination period of minimum 3 months (in which you're, in most cases, not expected to work)

homefree 1y ago

Yeah I’d argue this is so clearly the case and it’s one reason among many why the US has an enormous amount of successful tech companies and Europe has some amount that basically rounds to zero in comparison. The ability to hire and fire easily is critical if you want to build successful companies. There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Europe has made really bad policy decisions around this for decades and their economy reflects it. Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand.

disgruntledphd2 1y ago
> There’s a reason ambitious founders move from Europe to the US and why most billion dollar tech companies are American. Yes, and it's because of larger, more liquid capital markets make it much easier to obtain VC funding. > Europe is poor and to an extent I don’t think Europeans really understand. Europe is definitely not poor in terms of either wealth or income (particularly Western Europe, which is the appropriate comparator for the US).