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> But I was also immediately ripped away from my calendar, docs, code, and more. Layoffs are never easy. I've been through a few myself and it really takes the

> But I was also immediately ripped away from my calendar, docs, code, and more. Layoffs are never easy. I've been through a few myself and it really takes the wind out of your sails. That being said, this sentence made me pause a bit. None of these things mentioned are actually yours. They are the property of Google. One thing that helped me immensely in my career is understanding that my relationship with a company is a business relationship. They pay me for my time and skills and nothing more. Today I can have a job and tomorrow maybe not. I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. It's not easy but it's necessary. I'm not saying you can't enjoy what you do or be excited by it but don't fully tether yourself and your well-being to a company. Godspeed!

dullcrisp 2y ago
I think their point was that they were told they could look for another internal role, but at the same time had their access revoked, which sends a very mixed message.
- windward 2y ago
  It's because the message isn't for OP, it's for the people who are left.
- sudomateo 1y ago
  With the way it was written it wasn't clear to me whether the other role was offered as a replacement for the layoff or more of a good luck I'm sure you'll land on your feet. Agreed it's a mixed message if it was the former.
kopirgan 2y ago
Exactly.. Many see it as some sort of marriage in an age where even marriages are contractual relations
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  I hope you're not suggesting that you approach your marriage the way you approach your relationship with a corporate partner.
  - dzamo_norton 1y ago
    I am subjected to periodic performance reviews, you know.
anal_reactor 2y ago
> I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. This is a very recent development. Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life, which means it was very much worth it to cultivate that relationship, it's only now that we change jobs every two years. A friend of mine has a company in a very small town, and was complaining about an employee being lazy. I suggested "just fire him if he doesn't do his job", to which I heard "and then what? I'll have a jobless bum walking around my town. Thanks but no". This really shifted my perspective: the situation where employer and employee have no moral obligations towards one another and it's "business only" is not how the society at large should function.
- intellectronica 2y ago
  > Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life Hardly. This type of arrangement was short-lived and anomalous. It was roughly true in rich economies during a few decades of the post-war era. Never before, and not for most people around the world. Relationships are worth cultivating any time, of course, but one shouldn't mistake a job for a life. The idea that a job is for life and your employer is your family was a mind hack that worked for a short while and is now unraveling.
  - AstralStorm 2y ago
    It used to be sort of true in the Soviet sphere. By sort of, it was more like an employer for life rather than the exact job. Unless rhe company went under which was rare.
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    > Never before, and not for most people around the world. Please tell me more about the gig economy of medieval peasants.
    - intellectronica 1y ago
      Medieval peasants cannot be said to have had a job. They are mostly either tied to the land (and its ownders), or indeed gigging from season to season.
ErigmolCt 2y ago
Companies will always remind you it's "just business" when it suits them - so it's healthy to keep that same energy in return
- qntmfred 1y ago
  yup. embrace being a cog. enjoy your cog work as much as you can, but recognize it for what it is. don't tie your identity to it.
  - ErigmolCt 1y ago
    Exactly. There's freedom in that mindset too
- citizenpaul 1y ago
  Ah yes. I got to do that once after a layoff. The manager tried to guilt me or something into working after I was layed off. "Because they were given me severance so I should be ok with doing the work" I told them. No you are wrong. I was given severance to sign an NDA and non-disparagement agreement. That is what the severance bought the company, but I'll be glad to discuss a consultant role on an hourly basis.
  - ErigmolCt 1y ago
    Companies love to frame severance as some kind of favor when really it’s a transaction. You handled it exactly how more people should!
heresie-dabord 2y ago
> I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. It's not easy but it's necessary. Agreed, it is necessary to make deprogramming oneself easier — less painful — to the extent that one has come to identify with the work and/or culture and/or employer. But it is also exhausting to maintain a façade of allegiance to a harshly indifferent power structure.
- delichon 2y ago
  To me my employer is my customer. We don't require each other's allegiance, just an ongoing mutually beneficial transaction and good will. When either fails for either party it's time to move along. Devotion isn't part of the arrangement.
  - damnitbuilds 2y ago
    Similarly: I got badly burnt in a relationship once. After that I promised myself not to get hurt again. If you don't love each other any more, accept that, and walk away. Worked for me, and I stayed friends with almost all my ex-es after that.
windward 2y ago
>I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. Not just that: separate it from your career. Ensure that you and others would still value yourself even if you weren't receiving top decile income for an easy job. A misanthropic software developer is begrudgingly useful; a plain misanthrope isn't even mediocre.
- sudomateo 1y ago
  Good clarification. I know this separation is difficult especially when the career funds the other parts of life and the employer or title you hold is seen as prestigious.
kaon_ 1y ago
"One thing that helped me immensely in my career is understanding that my relationship with a company is a business relationship" That is just a culture thing. Most prominently in the US. In many cultures there is no clear boundary between personal relationships and business relationships. And why would there be? I would like to live in a world where kindness, dependability, punctuality, warmness, openness and forgiveness are values upheld both by natural and legal persons. And I have worked with many companies that have! As you can read in the comments, for every bad example you can find companies lead by empathic people that treat their employees humanely. Google always pretended to be that company. And maybe they were for a long time. Now they've shifted. They really didn't have to but they did. The excuse of "it's just a business relationship" really is just that: an excuse. The symptom of a culture with values so bankrupt that it accepts citizens being treated poorly and then blames the victims for expecting to be treated humanely. And yes, it saves you a lot of personal pain if you expect the worst from your employer from the outset. But is the world really better off if we all expect to treat each other like criminals?
- sudomateo 1y ago
  My comment is not meant to encourage removing kindness and humanity from the relationship. It's meant as a reminder that the other party in the relationship (the company) does not necessarily bring those values to the table. I would also like to live in a world where humane values are reflected in personal and business relationships to the point where the line between personal and business relationships blurs.

dullcrisp 2y ago

I think their point was that they were told they could look for another internal role, but at the same time had their access revoked, which sends a very mixed message.

windward 2y ago
It's because the message isn't for OP, it's for the people who are left.
sudomateo 1y ago
With the way it was written it wasn't clear to me whether the other role was offered as a replacement for the layoff or more of a good luck I'm sure you'll land on your feet. Agreed it's a mixed message if it was the former.

kopirgan 2y ago

Exactly.. Many see it as some sort of marriage in an age where even marriages are contractual relations

JKCalhoun 1y ago
I hope you're not suggesting that you approach your marriage the way you approach your relationship with a corporate partner.
- dzamo_norton 1y ago
  I am subjected to periodic performance reviews, you know.

anal_reactor 2y ago

> I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. This is a very recent development. Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life, which means it was very much worth it to cultivate that relationship, it's only now that we change jobs every two years. A friend of mine has a company in a very small town, and was complaining about an employee being lazy. I suggested "just fire him if he doesn't do his job", to which I heard "and then what? I'll have a jobless bum walking around my town. Thanks but no". This really shifted my perspective: the situation where employer and employee have no moral obligations towards one another and it's "business only" is not how the society at large should function.

intellectronica 2y ago
> Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life Hardly. This type of arrangement was short-lived and anomalous. It was roughly true in rich economies during a few decades of the post-war era. Never before, and not for most people around the world. Relationships are worth cultivating any time, of course, but one shouldn't mistake a job for a life. The idea that a job is for life and your employer is your family was a mind hack that worked for a short while and is now unraveling.
- AstralStorm 2y ago
  It used to be sort of true in the Soviet sphere. By sort of, it was more like an employer for life rather than the exact job. Unless rhe company went under which was rare.
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  > Never before, and not for most people around the world. Please tell me more about the gig economy of medieval peasants.
  - intellectronica 1y ago
    Medieval peasants cannot be said to have had a job. They are mostly either tied to the land (and its ownders), or indeed gigging from season to season.

ErigmolCt 2y ago

Companies will always remind you it's "just business" when it suits them - so it's healthy to keep that same energy in return

qntmfred 1y ago
yup. embrace being a cog. enjoy your cog work as much as you can, but recognize it for what it is. don't tie your identity to it.
- ErigmolCt 1y ago
  Exactly. There's freedom in that mindset too
citizenpaul 1y ago
Ah yes. I got to do that once after a layoff. The manager tried to guilt me or something into working after I was layed off. "Because they were given me severance so I should be ok with doing the work" I told them. No you are wrong. I was given severance to sign an NDA and non-disparagement agreement. That is what the severance bought the company, but I'll be glad to discuss a consultant role on an hourly basis.
- ErigmolCt 1y ago
  Companies love to frame severance as some kind of favor when really it’s a transaction. You handled it exactly how more people should!

heresie-dabord 2y ago

> I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. It's not easy but it's necessary. Agreed, it is necessary to make deprogramming oneself easier — less painful — to the extent that one has come to identify with the work and/or culture and/or employer. But it is also exhausting to maintain a façade of allegiance to a harshly indifferent power structure.

delichon 2y ago
To me my employer is my customer. We don't require each other's allegiance, just an ongoing mutually beneficial transaction and good will. When either fails for either party it's time to move along. Devotion isn't part of the arrangement.
- damnitbuilds 2y ago
  Similarly: I got badly burnt in a relationship once. After that I promised myself not to get hurt again. If you don't love each other any more, accept that, and walk away. Worked for me, and I stayed friends with almost all my ex-es after that.

windward 2y ago

>I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. Not just that: separate it from your career. Ensure that you and others would still value yourself even if you weren't receiving top decile income for an easy job. A misanthropic software developer is begrudgingly useful; a plain misanthrope isn't even mediocre.

sudomateo 1y ago
Good clarification. I know this separation is difficult especially when the career funds the other parts of life and the employer or title you hold is seen as prestigious.

kaon_ 1y ago

"One thing that helped me immensely in my career is understanding that my relationship with a company is a business relationship" That is just a culture thing. Most prominently in the US. In many cultures there is no clear boundary between personal relationships and business relationships. And why would there be? I would like to live in a world where kindness, dependability, punctuality, warmness, openness and forgiveness are values upheld both by natural and legal persons. And I have worked with many companies that have! As you can read in the comments, for every bad example you can find companies lead by empathic people that treat their employees humanely. Google always pretended to be that company. And maybe they were for a long time. Now they've shifted. They really didn't have to but they did. The excuse of "it's just a business relationship" really is just that: an excuse. The symptom of a culture with values so bankrupt that it accepts citizens being treated poorly and then blames the victims for expecting to be treated humanely. And yes, it saves you a lot of personal pain if you expect the worst from your employer from the outset. But is the world really better off if we all expect to treat each other like criminals?

sudomateo 1y ago
My comment is not meant to encourage removing kindness and humanity from the relationship. It's meant as a reminder that the other party in the relationship (the company) does not necessarily bring those values to the table. I would also like to live in a world where humane values are reflected in personal and business relationships to the point where the line between personal and business relationships blurs.