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I agree education (and even more particularly, the method and quality of teaching) is a problem, but it's not the same problem as student debt. As far as I can

I agree education (and even more particularly, the method and quality of teaching) is a problem, but it's not the same problem as student debt. As far as I can tell, much of the (debt) problem is caused by bad decision making by clueless parents and teenagers who think they need to send their kid to an Ivy League or think that their child somehow needs to spend 40k a year to go to an in-state school. Let's be honest. The cost of education is going up, yes. But getting into debt is also bad and a poor choice. Yet nobody is responsible enough to consider it when making college choices, just to whine about it after the fact. Students do not need to own a television or get cable or even have a video game console. Students probably don't even need a car, definitely don't need smartphones, and at least where I went to school, could probably do just fine without owning a computer, too. Likewise, instead of getting into debt they could go to cheaper community colleges or a whole slew of things. Instead many college students, regardless of economic background, seem to have smartphones, Macs, and 42" TVs. When I see someone complaining about college debt, I see somebody who went to an overly expensive school, without a plan, and did whatever they felt like without ever stopping to consider first if they could make a living when they were done. I see a child. As someone who looked at the big picture when making college decisions and now has no college debt two years out of school, I have no sympathy. I turned down the University of Chicago (among others) so that I wouldn't be in debt and to hear all the whining about it from entitled feeling kids who didn't make smart decisions makes me angry. Now I'll agree that you may need to take on some debt to complete college. But if you're taking on more than the cost of a new car, you're doing it wrong. Don't get me wrong, either. I concur that colleges waste lots of money.

jfarmer 14y ago
I attended the University of Chicago, paid for it myself, and took on 100% of the debt. I'm still paying it off, but it was worth it! My life is without question 100x better for it. Your point is fair, though: with few exceptions student's expectations of how transformative their college education to be absolutely eclipses the reality.
- armored_mammal 14y ago
  Yeah, sometimes I think I might have had a better experience there, but then I think "I'd probably be more than 150k in debt" and the feeling passes. Plus I'm doing fine without having gone there. It's definitely a great school. I can't imagine what it's like to have that debt hanging over your head. It seems like it'd only be worth it if you get hired out of school for something really amazing or with a ridiculously high starting salary.
- lrs 14y ago
  I think the OP's characterization of the decisionmaking process that leads to crippling educational debt is somewhat unfair. It's definitely driven by the parents and children who he condemns as "clueless." But I think it's important to consider that many of these "clueless" have been told their entire lives that "education is a great investment" and "graduates of prestigious universities all become successful and rich," and have never really been confronted with any reason to question these pronouncements, which have appeared consistent with their own observations and experiences. Colleges and universities don't hesitate to trot out these tropes in their recruitment literature, though I suppose it's a mark of the "clueless" that they hold educational institutions to a different standard of credibility than used car salesmen or carnival barkers. I see a parallel to the recent mortgage crisis. Sure, fundamentally, the crisis was just huge numbers of people defaulting en-masse on their mortgages. They all made "clueless" decisions by taking on more mortgage debt than they could handle. Maybe they deserve what they get, and maybe the appropriate response is to be angry at these entitled whiners who made worse decisions than the OP. But these decisions were facilitated by lenders and securities brokers who were acting in less than good faith. I'm inclined to view both the homeowners in the mortgage crisis and the students and families struggling with education debt right now more as victims of poor information availability and outmoded decision heuristics that fell behind the times, and less as entitled whiners. I guess I should note that I also went to the University of Chicago (hi Jesse) and it's fairly clear by now that it was a terrible choice for me. So maybe I'm just grasping for rationalizations while desperately fleeing from the crushing psychological weight of the responsibility for that choice and the long and uninterrupted sequence of related bad choices that have more or less ruined my life.
gpcz 14y ago
I think a big aspect of the problem is that people literally are children (or less than a year into adulthood) when social proof from their high school classmates dictates that they choose a college. As PG said in "Why Nerds are Unpopular," if he could go back and give his thirteen year old self advice, he'd tell him to realize the world around him was fake. Most students coming out of high school simply don't have the perspective to know "the big picture" like you did, nor do they know that they should be seeking that perspective. By the time they might realize this, they may already be half-way (or fully) invested in a bad decision that has significant barriers to fix. (edit: "Nerds are Unpopular" => "Why Nerds are Unpopular")
icegreentea 14y ago
While I agree with many of your points in principle, I think your rhetoric is a bit off. For one thing, I think it's ridiculous to even bring up Ivy League when discussing overall student debt. Ivy League's total enrollment is something like 100,000. Assuming every single freshman took a full debt load, thats 'only' 5 billion or so. The government report linked in the article states that in 2010-2011, $117B of student debt was generated. Ivy League doesn't even matter. Furthermore, while its easy to criticize the students themselves - obviously many of them are not paragons of responsible spending, but it also kind of misses the point. For one thing it's easy to wave away and say 'many' students have shit they 'don't need', but how many really do? And how much is that really contributing. Without data, its just a gut feeling. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Because I can tell you that where I live, very few students have 42" TVs. Yes, we have smartphone and Macs, and some of us have video game consoles, but how much does this really add to our debt load? Certainly not trivial, but when you consider the average student debt is like 25k, you certainly can't say that the extra 4-6k on random gadgets is what is driving the problem. After all, if you can pay a 20k loan and avoid defaulting, you probably can also pay for a 25k load and avoid defaulting. And finally, how does one even approach solving a systemic problem (it obviously is systemic) like this if all you do is place the blame on the actors. Clearly the problem is large enough for blame to be ladled on everyone.
- danielweber 14y ago
  A lot of private schools follow the "charge just as much as the Ivies, so you can tell employers we're just as good" model. As a percentage of students, the Ivies are small. As trend-setters that lots of other people follow, they are very significant.
hanibash 14y ago
Well said. Mostly, I see student debt as a glaring indicator that the system as a whole has some serious problems. I don't like to place blame on who is responsible. But, it can't be denied that student and family responsibility is a factor in the massive student debt problem. But keep in mind there are external pressures on families and students as well. Schools will sell students very hard. Peers. Our entire culture. When your president gets on air and says "We are dedicated to sending every kid to college", that's a very strong cultural message. I commend you for making wise decisions when you went to school, though.

jfarmer 14y ago

I attended the University of Chicago, paid for it myself, and took on 100% of the debt. I'm still paying it off, but it was worth it! My life is without question 100x better for it. Your point is fair, though: with few exceptions student's expectations of how transformative their college education to be absolutely eclipses the reality.

armored_mammal 14y ago
Yeah, sometimes I think I might have had a better experience there, but then I think "I'd probably be more than 150k in debt" and the feeling passes. Plus I'm doing fine without having gone there. It's definitely a great school. I can't imagine what it's like to have that debt hanging over your head. It seems like it'd only be worth it if you get hired out of school for something really amazing or with a ridiculously high starting salary.
lrs 14y ago
I think the OP's characterization of the decisionmaking process that leads to crippling educational debt is somewhat unfair. It's definitely driven by the parents and children who he condemns as "clueless." But I think it's important to consider that many of these "clueless" have been told their entire lives that "education is a great investment" and "graduates of prestigious universities all become successful and rich," and have never really been confronted with any reason to question these pronouncements, which have appeared consistent with their own observations and experiences. Colleges and universities don't hesitate to trot out these tropes in their recruitment literature, though I suppose it's a mark of the "clueless" that they hold educational institutions to a different standard of credibility than used car salesmen or carnival barkers. I see a parallel to the recent mortgage crisis. Sure, fundamentally, the crisis was just huge numbers of people defaulting en-masse on their mortgages. They all made "clueless" decisions by taking on more mortgage debt than they could handle. Maybe they deserve what they get, and maybe the appropriate response is to be angry at these entitled whiners who made worse decisions than the OP. But these decisions were facilitated by lenders and securities brokers who were acting in less than good faith. I'm inclined to view both the homeowners in the mortgage crisis and the students and families struggling with education debt right now more as victims of poor information availability and outmoded decision heuristics that fell behind the times, and less as entitled whiners. I guess I should note that I also went to the University of Chicago (hi Jesse) and it's fairly clear by now that it was a terrible choice for me. So maybe I'm just grasping for rationalizations while desperately fleeing from the crushing psychological weight of the responsibility for that choice and the long and uninterrupted sequence of related bad choices that have more or less ruined my life.

gpcz 14y ago

I think a big aspect of the problem is that people literally are children (or less than a year into adulthood) when social proof from their high school classmates dictates that they choose a college. As PG said in "Why Nerds are Unpopular," if he could go back and give his thirteen year old self advice, he'd tell him to realize the world around him was fake. Most students coming out of high school simply don't have the perspective to know "the big picture" like you did, nor do they know that they should be seeking that perspective. By the time they might realize this, they may already be half-way (or fully) invested in a bad decision that has significant barriers to fix. (edit: "Nerds are Unpopular" => "Why Nerds are Unpopular")

icegreentea 14y ago

While I agree with many of your points in principle, I think your rhetoric is a bit off. For one thing, I think it's ridiculous to even bring up Ivy League when discussing overall student debt. Ivy League's total enrollment is something like 100,000. Assuming every single freshman took a full debt load, thats 'only' 5 billion or so. The government report linked in the article states that in 2010-2011, $117B of student debt was generated. Ivy League doesn't even matter. Furthermore, while its easy to criticize the students themselves - obviously many of them are not paragons of responsible spending, but it also kind of misses the point. For one thing it's easy to wave away and say 'many' students have shit they 'don't need', but how many really do? And how much is that really contributing. Without data, its just a gut feeling. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Because I can tell you that where I live, very few students have 42" TVs. Yes, we have smartphone and Macs, and some of us have video game consoles, but how much does this really add to our debt load? Certainly not trivial, but when you consider the average student debt is like 25k, you certainly can't say that the extra 4-6k on random gadgets is what is driving the problem. After all, if you can pay a 20k loan and avoid defaulting, you probably can also pay for a 25k load and avoid defaulting. And finally, how does one even approach solving a systemic problem (it obviously is systemic) like this if all you do is place the blame on the actors. Clearly the problem is large enough for blame to be ladled on everyone.

danielweber 14y ago
A lot of private schools follow the "charge just as much as the Ivies, so you can tell employers we're just as good" model. As a percentage of students, the Ivies are small. As trend-setters that lots of other people follow, they are very significant.

hanibash 14y ago

Well said. Mostly, I see student debt as a glaring indicator that the system as a whole has some serious problems. I don't like to place blame on who is responsible. But, it can't be denied that student and family responsibility is a factor in the massive student debt problem. But keep in mind there are external pressures on families and students as well. Schools will sell students very hard. Peers. Our entire culture. When your president gets on air and says "We are dedicated to sending every kid to college", that's a very strong cultural message. I commend you for making wise decisions when you went to school, though.