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> Our minds have been so colonized or beaten down by powerful forces that _any_ support of the plight of the Palestine people is seen as pro-Hamas, What makes

by edanm 2y ago

> Our minds have been so colonized or beaten down by powerful forces that _any_ support of the plight of the Palestine people is seen as pro-Hamas, What makes you say that? Plenty of people express support for the Palestinian people, including plenty of governments and heads of state, etc. I personally think that being pro-Palestine means you should be anti-Hamas, since they are a brutal dictatorship that's plundered its people's resources to engage in a war with Israel that has destroyed their lives. The main worrying thing is when someone is not pro-Palestinian, they're either pro-Hamas or anti-Israel.

sriram_malhar 2y ago
I agree with the last two paras, with the following addendum. I'm also pro-Israeli people, but I find their leadership (and the settlers) the same as Hamas. No different. As for the first para, I have very close friends who have been harassed for expressing support for plight. If you are a university student in the US today and said exactly what I have said, you can be found guilty as a terrorist-sympathizer. I have been downvoted to hell on reddit and elsewhere for putting it as mildly as I did here.
- simion314 2y ago
  Reddit is full of paid trolls that will pile in huge number to kill any discussion that is percived against Israel, you can\t talk about the latest war crimes Israel is doing without a number of accounts piling on you, accusing you of fascism, racis, that you do not know history, that the articles are false and no childrens were murdered, if they were some children killed then for sure some terrorists were hidding there with the children etc. It is actually impossible to talk about this topic on reddit, I can shit on Putin and Ruzzians all day so it is clear Israel has more money invested in their cyber army then the Zeds.
  - edanm 2y ago
    Out of curiosity - how do you know they are paid trolls and not just people with those views on this issue? Personally, I don't use Reddit much, but this is definitely not the sense I get from seeing reading e.g. Twitter, in which there are plenty of extremely anti-Israel voices. Remember - we're all seeing our own personal echo chamber of content.
    - simion314 2y ago
      I assume people that are not paid have a bit of shame and they are also lazy and not work hard to justify why killing children is OK and also jump instantly a topic is posted, and also try to shut me up with accusation of being an anti-semite. There is also an easy but not perfect way to check, you look at the account age and post history. If you check a normal user account like mine you will see it ha many years long, that I post say on average 3 comments a day, some days nothing and maybe soem days more. That I also have low activity and different sections like Star trek, or some video game I was into at that time, or soem TV show, With paid accounts they are all very new, they all post on the same topic like defending Ruzzia or Israel, they are very active only on this topic. Also there is known that Ruzzia and Israel have paid cyber worriors so for sure they have scripts that will alert when something about their regime is posted and they worriors will pop up and repeat their propaganda to excuse the war crimes.
      - edanm 2y ago
        > I assume people that are not paid have a bit of shame and they are also lazy and not work hard to justify why killing children is OK In other words, you assume that people that disagree with you must be bots or paid trolls? That certainly explains why you think Reddit is full of them :) I will often write stuff that you would probably consider pro-Israeli. I'm not a troll and don't get paid for it. Do you simply dismiss anything I say because you assume I'm either a bot or a "Israeli paid cyber warrior"? That makes you wrong, and makes you unable to ever learn new things or new perspectives. (I'm not disputing, btw, that there are a lot of trolls. From my perspective, 90% of people posting anything about the conflict, including some major accounts, are absolutely trolls - they have no skin in the game and little real knowledge of the situation, and simply want to post provocative things, whether pro or anti, to get engagement.)
        simion314 2y ago
        I give you a lot of clues on how to detect a bot I did not said that all people that disagree with me ar bots, for example I disagree with lot of MAGA uninformed people and they are not bots, I can see they are behaving like regular people. Read those hints again, is your account a f ew days old, do you only post about Israel? do you comments appear super fast in response to my comments like it was triggered by alarms? If those are yes then you are a bot, can't be 100% sure if you are paid, could be someone doing is mandatory unpaid military service.
- edanm 2y ago
  > I'm also pro-Israeli people, but I find their leadership (and the settlers) the same as Hamas. No different. I agree with the sentiment, but I wouldn't go quite so far, neither in the goals nor the tactics. Also, "Israeli leadership" is a pretty broad term - there are specific very bad actors, but the most extremist actors are largely a minority (with, unfortunately, far more political power than their minority support should give them). Hamas is bad - current Israeli leadership is bad. But there are degrees of badness and I don't think it's correct to equate them. It's also, tactically speaking, a pretty bad way to discuss these things, as most on the pro-Israel side will not really be receptive to arguments made from people who equate the two. Assuming your goal is to actually persuade people on the pro-Israeli side. > As for the first para, I have very close friends who have been harassed for expressing support for plight. If you are a university student in the US today and said exactly what I have said, you can be found guilty as a terrorist-sympathizer. That's pretty awful that that's the case. What can I say? I'm against it. Both in the broader sense of supporting free speech, and in the specific case here in which statements in support of the Palestinian people are obviously totally fine (and, IMO, the only moral stance).

by edanm 2y ago

sriram_malhar 2y ago

I agree with the last two paras, with the following addendum. I'm also pro-Israeli people, but I find their leadership (and the settlers) the same as Hamas. No different. As for the first para, I have very close friends who have been harassed for expressing support for plight. If you are a university student in the US today and said exactly what I have said, you can be found guilty as a terrorist-sympathizer. I have been downvoted to hell on reddit and elsewhere for putting it as mildly as I did here.

simion314 2y ago
Reddit is full of paid trolls that will pile in huge number to kill any discussion that is percived against Israel, you can\t talk about the latest war crimes Israel is doing without a number of accounts piling on you, accusing you of fascism, racis, that you do not know history, that the articles are false and no childrens were murdered, if they were some children killed then for sure some terrorists were hidding there with the children etc. It is actually impossible to talk about this topic on reddit, I can shit on Putin and Ruzzians all day so it is clear Israel has more money invested in their cyber army then the Zeds.
- edanm 2y ago
  Out of curiosity - how do you know they are paid trolls and not just people with those views on this issue? Personally, I don't use Reddit much, but this is definitely not the sense I get from seeing reading e.g. Twitter, in which there are plenty of extremely anti-Israel voices. Remember - we're all seeing our own personal echo chamber of content.
  - simion314 2y ago
    I assume people that are not paid have a bit of shame and they are also lazy and not work hard to justify why killing children is OK and also jump instantly a topic is posted, and also try to shut me up with accusation of being an anti-semite. There is also an easy but not perfect way to check, you look at the account age and post history. If you check a normal user account like mine you will see it ha many years long, that I post say on average 3 comments a day, some days nothing and maybe soem days more. That I also have low activity and different sections like Star trek, or some video game I was into at that time, or soem TV show, With paid accounts they are all very new, they all post on the same topic like defending Ruzzia or Israel, they are very active only on this topic. Also there is known that Ruzzia and Israel have paid cyber worriors so for sure they have scripts that will alert when something about their regime is posted and they worriors will pop up and repeat their propaganda to excuse the war crimes.
    - edanm 2y ago
      > I assume people that are not paid have a bit of shame and they are also lazy and not work hard to justify why killing children is OK In other words, you assume that people that disagree with you must be bots or paid trolls? That certainly explains why you think Reddit is full of them :) I will often write stuff that you would probably consider pro-Israeli. I'm not a troll and don't get paid for it. Do you simply dismiss anything I say because you assume I'm either a bot or a "Israeli paid cyber warrior"? That makes you wrong, and makes you unable to ever learn new things or new perspectives. (I'm not disputing, btw, that there are a lot of trolls. From my perspective, 90% of people posting anything about the conflict, including some major accounts, are absolutely trolls - they have no skin in the game and little real knowledge of the situation, and simply want to post provocative things, whether pro or anti, to get engagement.)
      - simion314 2y ago
        I give you a lot of clues on how to detect a bot I did not said that all people that disagree with me ar bots, for example I disagree with lot of MAGA uninformed people and they are not bots, I can see they are behaving like regular people. Read those hints again, is your account a f ew days old, do you only post about Israel? do you comments appear super fast in response to my comments like it was triggered by alarms? If those are yes then you are a bot, can't be 100% sure if you are paid, could be someone doing is mandatory unpaid military service.
edanm 2y ago
> I'm also pro-Israeli people, but I find their leadership (and the settlers) the same as Hamas. No different. I agree with the sentiment, but I wouldn't go quite so far, neither in the goals nor the tactics. Also, "Israeli leadership" is a pretty broad term - there are specific very bad actors, but the most extremist actors are largely a minority (with, unfortunately, far more political power than their minority support should give them). Hamas is bad - current Israeli leadership is bad. But there are degrees of badness and I don't think it's correct to equate them. It's also, tactically speaking, a pretty bad way to discuss these things, as most on the pro-Israel side will not really be receptive to arguments made from people who equate the two. Assuming your goal is to actually persuade people on the pro-Israeli side. > As for the first para, I have very close friends who have been harassed for expressing support for plight. If you are a university student in the US today and said exactly what I have said, you can be found guilty as a terrorist-sympathizer. That's pretty awful that that's the case. What can I say? I'm against it. Both in the broader sense of supporting free speech, and in the specific case here in which statements in support of the Palestinian people are obviously totally fine (and, IMO, the only moral stance).