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Adobe runs what must be one of the largest deceptive rebills. The vast majority of users signing up for a monthly plan do not realize that it is actually an "an
by 55555 1y ago
Adobe runs what must be one of the largest deceptive rebills. The vast majority of users signing up for a monthly plan do not realize that it is actually an "annual plan, billed monthly" and thus that if they cancel after one month (for example) they'll be billed for the remaining 11 immediately. I honestly don't know how they haven't faced FTC action for this, as it's been their primary model for 5-10 years now.
- sepositus 1y agoWasn't there some action around this like a year ago? Can't find it now, but I thought it was investigated at some point.
- 55555 1y agoIt seems you're right. I can't find how big the fine was. ChatGPT says it is still ongoing. Not sure if that's right. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/06/ftc-takes-action-against-adobe-executives-hiding-fees-preventing-consumers-easily-cancelling https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/06/...
- _Algernon_ 1y agoWe all have access to chatgpt. If we want hallucination ridden bullshit, we'll find it ourselves.
- elaus 1y agoIt doesn't seem to me like the linked page contains "hallucination ridden bullshit".
- bdelmas 1y agoYes. AI becoming the first place people go for information and replacing facts and first degree of source is going to be a scary world.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- caseyy 1y agoI agree with you about ChatGPT "facts", but the parent commenter shared valuable information with a source. No need to treat them in such a rude way.
- kergonath 1y agoThe ChatGPT bit brings nothing. Just the source would be enough. Nobody feels the need to justify anything by saying "looked it up on Google". What matters is the actual source, and ChatGPT isn’t one.
- AlOwain 1y ago[dead]
- simonklitj 1y agoYeah, you can change plans (at no cost), then cancel right after the change. You get 14 days of free cancellation, which resets on plan change.
- hapidjus 1y agoDid exactly this, got hit with the cacellation fee a couple of days later.
- simonklitj 1y agoReally? Worked for me in February. In that case, this workaround might’ve been patched.
- speff 1y agoI still don't see why this is a point against Adobe. When you select a plan, they very clearly give you 3 options. Monthly, Annual billed monthly, and Annual prepaid. The Annual billed monthly is just flat-out better for end users over prepaid. Why do people want to get rid of it? Because some people FAFO when trying to get an annual price while still being able to cancel any time? I do not like Adobe in the slightest, but it's not because of their billing practices.
- 55555 1y agoIt used to not be clear at all. Maybe it is now. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/06/ftc-takes-action-against-adobe-executives-hiding-fees-preventing-consumers-easily-cancelling https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/06/... Interestingly, just fyi, they do a reasonable-person test when trying these cases. That means they literally pull 100 people off the street and ask each one to go through the funnel and then give them a quiz with questions like "How much am I going to be billed?" So if people are confused, it's basically on you, regardless of whether you think you were being clear about the terms.
- speff 1y agoThat's fair - I don't know what their sales page looked like prior to the FCC investigation. However in its current state, I see no issues with the way the information's presented. If a majority of the 100 people can't figure it out, I'm not sure what else they can do other than remove the option which is better for the consumer. I wouldn't be surprised it that's where it'll end up
- tirant 1y agoWell, you would be surprised how many issues in financial education would 100 random people off the street have. But the contract plan is not aimed at them, but at literate computer users most of them working as freelancers (so with at least some financial knowledge). The same way a Pilot Operating Handbook cannot be judged by the understanding of random 100 people off the street.
- sanswork 1y agoI just went back through the sign up process to check and it seems pretty obvious these days? I got three options at checkout annual billed monthly, monthly, annual. I hate annual billed monthly but the wording isn't hidden.
- InsideOutSanta 1y agoI think it's still not great. The annual/monthly plan says: >Annual, billed monthly >US$22.99/mo >Fee applies if you cancel after 14 days There's a popup you can open with more information, but that just says: >If you cancel after 14 days, your service will continue until the end of that month's billing period, and you will be charged an early termination fee. It doesn't tell you anywhere what that fee is, and I can't find any link to a page with more information.
- liendolucas 1y agoFee application for cancelling a subscription service should be absolutely illegal.
- maccard 1y agoIt’s a fee for cancelling an annual subscription that you agreed to.
- liendolucas 1y agoThat's exactly why it should be illegal: so people don't have to agree to an abusive and money thirsty contract.
- maccard 1y agoThey have the option right next to that for a monthly only option.
- 1y ago
- vishnugupta 1y agoAlmost every single one of Adbobe post on HN has a top comment about this evil subscription plan. I fell for it once. But I’m in India so I just cancelled my debit card and that was that. Good luck to them to chase me through legal means in India. It was still bit of a hassle though.
- SanjayMehta 1y agoI had to cancel a card thanks to PayPal’s shenanigans. Now it’s much easier to deal with the subscription problems due to the new RBI norms.
- porridgeraisin 1y agoWhich norms?
- SanjayMehta 1y agoAny renewal must be preceded by a notification from the vendor and the owner of the card has to enter an OTP to allow the transaction. Earlier the vendor would just take your money and you’d have to fight a long battle to get it back.
- LoganDark 1y ago> But I’m in India so I just cancelled my debit card and that was that. i also use separate cards for everything, just through privacy.com, so i also can just cancel things. services have started falsely blocking it for abuse though which is really sad :/
- devsda 1y ago> actually an "annual plan, billed monthly" and thus that if they cancel after one month (for example) they'll be billed for the remaining 11 immediately I don't know if this is a recent policy change, but it is not the complete amount but only 50% of the remaining annual amount as per their website[1]. If it were something involving physical goods or services I can understand, but 50% penalty is still a crazy amount for a hosted software service. 1. https://www.adobe.com/legal/subscription-terms.html https://www.adobe.com/legal/subscription-terms.html
- r33b33 1y agoThat's why you always use throwaway cards for this.
- fc417fc802 1y agoI would be too lazy to bother with a throwaway in almost all circumstances, but I would 100% attempt a charge back in anger. I'm uncertain how my bank would ultimately respond though.
- bravetraveler 1y agoThrowaways/virtual cards are my default state. If it's worth subscribing, it's worth the seconds it takes to generate and copy. Think about it: you're in control. Not being at the mercy of... whoever is great. You said it yourself: attempt. Why play with your money? The toys/experiences it can afford are way more fun. Chargebacks are more effort, and IIRC, weigh negatively on you as well. Can only do so many. I expect your bank would take issue if you really relied on this strategy. Painful to unsub? How terrible for them. I can be painful to bill. PLONK says the pause button. Learned everything I needed to know from gyms. If they don't take a virtual card, but want bank details/etc... they're on some bullshit. Pass.
- maayank 1y agoHow do you make virtual cards?
- sethammons 1y agoWe successfully stopped paying for a collection of Adobe products that were for a student license last year. We randomly were charged again in January and February of this year and when I called they couldn't find any records of charges. They recommended contesting the charges on the card and we've not been charged since. Still, crazy that they couldn't even verify they charged my card.
- liendolucas 1y agoI will never do subscriptions. As you mentioned, the fact that you you have to "successfully stop an automatic payment" is an experience that I'm not willing to go through.
- dharmab 1y agoCapital One has a feature where you can generate temporary card numbers. Each one can be authorized for "a single charge" or "repeating charges at one merchant". And you have a toggle switch in the latter case to dis/enable payments. Really handy for subscriptions.
- KurSix 1y agoYeah, that whole "annual plan billed monthly" thing feels intentionally shady
- maccard 1y agoShould adobe only offer an annual subscription up front and a monthly rolling bill? Should they not offer a discount for people who want to make an annual commitment but don’t have the cash flow for the annual spend all in one go?
- Jarwain 1y agoFrom what I recall, it's difficult to figure out how to just pay for the non-discounted monthly, which is the biggest part of the problem.
- maccard 1y agoWhen you click buy now there’s three options. Annual, monthly, annual paid monthly. They could put the cancellation fee for annual paid monthly, I agree. But short of that they’ll run into the “how can anyone ever be expected to read all that information when they just want to sign up to a service” problem.
- gcau 1y agoWhen I tried to cancel a regular monthly subscription, they tried to force me to pay a fee to be able to cancel the subscription, and they don't let you disconnect your payment methods. Luckily, I used paypal so I could unauthorise them on paypal. If this happened again to me I would be contacting the consumer rights organisation my country has.
- throwaway48476 1y agoContact them anyways.
- maccard 1y agoI don’t get it, honestly. It’s very clear. You get a discount for an annual commitment and they let you pay monthly. It’s super clear which you’re signing up for when you do it. I’m in the UK, and there’s a 14 day cooling off period on the plans too, unless you buy the full blown annual one. I’m no adobe supporter generally, and sure they could do more, but they take an awful lot of flak for people who won’t read two lines of text and then scream bloody murder.
- Symbiote 1y agoShown by the video embedded in [1] (which has a screenshot at 2:00), Adobe changed their sign-up process and added those clear options after being sued by the US for deceptive subscription fees. https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/adobe-sued-over-subscription-fees/ https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/adobe-sued-over-subscription-f...
- maccard 1y agook so the problem is they _used_ to do this. I’m not suggesting we just forgive and forget, but warning people against abusive billing practices that aren’t in place any more is a bit silly. If your argument is we shouldnt support a corporation who requires being taken to court to treat their users fairly then there’s probably a very long list of companies that fail that test much harder than adobe do, especially now.
- ciabattabread 1y agoI have one of those "annual plan, billed monthly". How the hell do I figure out when I initially signed for it? Along the way, I got two free months for getting a Logitech mouse, does that change my annual month?
- wildpeaks 1y agoWhen you're logged in at https://account.adobe.com/plans https://account.adobe.com/plans, click the first link in the left sidebar with your current plan, it should mention the day you signed up.
- __jonas 1y agoYeah this is terrible, I remember for creative suite there used to be some weird workaround where you could switch your plan to the cheapest one (I think it was Photoshop+Lightroom) and then cancel, and then it would not charge you for the remaining time. I wonder if that still works.
- ivolimmen 1y agoI would love to know how this goes in the Netherlands where we have strict rules on this. If it's not really clear rules dictate the customer is right, so that yearly subscription is simply a monthly subscription.
- ziml77 1y agoI looked at their plans a few years back and it was very clear that they had 3 payment options: Monthly, Annual, and Annual billed Monthly. Of course if you get the third option, getting out of the contract is going to cost you. Otherwise what would ever be the point of choosing the Monthly plan when both Annual options have a discount for going with a longer subscription period?
- mk89 1y agoI only see annual and annual billed monthly in photoshop pricing plans. Where do you see the monthly one? Edit: I just clicked on buy, and it leads to what you said. Apparently the monthly one is not mentioned in the front page. Weird.
- mk89 1y agoOut of curiosity I went to their website to understand how they sell it, because it wasn't clear... https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/plans.html https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/plans.html I am not sure why this should face FTC or any similar mechanism to prevent "deception". It's written right there: US$22.99/mo Annual, billed monthly And if you slightly scroll down the very first question is how much it costs: > There are several Creative Cloud plans that include Photoshop. You can purchase it as a standalone app for US$22.99/mo. for the annual billed monthly plan or opt for annual billing at US$263.88/yr. Buying it with the annual billing would save you 1$ per month. I have seen this model used elsewhere: if you opt in for the yearly subscription, you still pay per month but you save X% over the monthly subscription. Not sure what could they do to make it more obvious, besides writing big: we only offer yearly subscriptions, although you can pay monthly.. Edit: if you click on buy it, it leads to another option too, the monthly one. Is this the scam one? Because it says you cancel any time... Edit again: it seems that they did quite some nasty stuff in the past and then US sued them, so now they are more transparent about their subscriptions. God bless such organizations that sue the hell out of such bad actors until they behave well.
- ricardobeat 1y ago"Annual, billed monthly" is the deception. That's not a common thing and most users just see it as normal month-to-month billing. Annual billing still having a discount just adds to the confusion.
- mk89 1y agoI think they fixed the deception. Annual, billed monthly cannot be a deception the way it is phrased. Lots of contracts work like that, even my phone/electricity bill and they have been like that forever. The issue, if you look in one of the links posted in the comments, is that some years ago they didn't mention this specifically. They made you believe it was a monthly subscription and when you canceled it, the termination fees were really high. You know, like those old contracts using 4pt fonts for the important stuff :)
- smileybarry 1y ago
- madaxe_again 1y agoI found this out the hard way… But you know what? Karma’s a bitch. I think I am likely not alone in having used a cracked version of photoshop for far, far more time than I ever did an actual paid up copy. I’m not unaware that piracy was part of their strategy for market penetration, and I guess it’s now a case of “we have the market cornered, let’s monetise”.
- madeofpalk 1y ago> I honestly don't know how they haven't faced FTC action for this FTC Takes Action Against Adobe and Executives for Hiding Fees, Preventing Consumers from Easily Cancelling Software Subscriptions June 17, 2024 https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/06/ftc-takes-action-against-adobe-executives-hiding-fees-preventing-consumers-easily-cancelling https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/06/...
- ajxs 1y agoI posted elsewhere in this thread that when I tried to cancel, and discovered that I was actually paying for an annual plan on a monthly basis, I told their support person I'd be speaking with the local consumer affairs regulator[1]. They instantly waived the cancellation fee. I'm tempted to think they've had some trouble with regulators on this issue before. 1: https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/
- mjmas 1y agoIt seems like this would/should be covered under Australia's unfair contracts law, which requires the term to have a legitimate interest as well as being transparent (which I dont think would be met if they are charging 50% of the remainder, when they would have been happy for you to get a monthly subscription and cancel after a month, only having spent a fifth of what they would charge for termination)
- PaleHazy 1y agothis literally happened to me