5 ms·

So this is only loosely related to the posted article, but I found the "great green wall" project from the U.N. to be super interesting. It makes me wonder if t

So this is only loosely related to the posted article, but I found the "great green wall" project from the U.N. to be super interesting. It makes me wonder if the same concepts can (and should?) be applied to other deserts, such as the American midwest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xls7K_xFBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xls7K_xFBQ

BurningFrog 2y ago
Big bold projects by African dictators to leapfrog the economy has a truly atrocious track record. UN involvement makes it even worse. That said, if it will work long term in some of the countries, that would be great news. I'm glad that it's still possible to destroy an ecosystem in order to replace it with something better. That would never fly in the US. We also have no need to produce more food, and our deserts are mostly beloved natural wonders.
- inetknght 2y ago
  > Big bold projects by African dictators to leapfrog the economy has a truly atrocious track record. Perhaps, yes. But the Sahara is expanding and reducing the livable area of land in those countries. That can only add to economic strife. On the other hand, building a green wall reduces or eliminates the expansion of the desert and also increases the amount of food available to those countries. I believe that would help reduce the strife between those countries. Yes there's risk of abuse but I think everyone wants to be self-sufficient and anything towards that is laudable. > UN involvement makes it even worse. Can you explain that further? The U.N. is terrible at directly preventing conflict (just look at Ukraine) but I think it has a decent track record of helping countries build their infrastructure. > I'm glad that it's still possible to destroy an ecosystem What? You think building green savannahs is destroying an ecosystem? > That would never fly in the US. I don't know about never but I do think it'd certainly be difficult. > We also have no need to produce more food I disagree. I think we have no appetite to produce more food right now, but the way we're currently growing food is rather asinine. > and our deserts are mostly beloved natural wonders. Mostly, yes. But I think there's plenty of deserts that aren't quite natural wonders.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > Can you explain that further? The U.N. is terrible at directly preventing conflict (just look at Ukraine) but I think it has a decent track record of helping countries build their infrastructure Some UN agencies are very effective, particularly the ones that are basically run by Americans, such as the World Bank. The more third world countries participate in any given agency, the more of a tire fire it is.
    - MomsAVoxell 2y ago
      Could you be more imperialist? Let’s see some examples of well-run UN agencies ‘staffed by Americans’. I guarantee you they are a cesspool of corruption and bigotry.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        Incorrect. Source: am a third worlder, my dad was exiled from the third world for being too conscientious and punctual and spent his career working with UN agencies.
    - inetknght 2y ago
      > The more third world countries participate in any given agency, the more of a tire fire it is. I don't know about other U.N. agencies. But I find Andrew Millison's youtube blogs [0] to be quite interesting on the subject. His blog about refugees [1] for example. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/@amillison https://www.youtube.com/@amillison [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfiH9T-iR3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfiH9T-iR3E
  - Xorakios 2y ago
    The Sahara has generally been contracting for the last few decades as the "greener" Sahel band expands north due to higher average rainfall (individual years vary, and the effect is stronger in the west than the east). A Google search will likely list articles citing the 2018 study from UofMaryland that showed approximately a 10% increase in the Sahara's area from 1902-2012, ignoring the portions of that study that said that breaking down by decade showed a reversal in the 1980's. https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/31/9/jcli-d-17-0187.1.xml https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/31/9/jcli-d-... Google maps timeview has a fun animation if you search for Sahara Desert. https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/ https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/
- graemep 2y ago
  > Big bold projects by African dictators to leapfrog the economy has a truly atrocious track record. This is a multinational project with clear benefits. It is very different from flashy projects like airports no one uses.
teruakohatu 2y ago
According to Wikipedia the wall was reported to be 15% complete in 2019, but found to be actually just 4% complete in 2020, then reportedly 18% in 2022 and 30% last year. Given that is started over 15 years ago and there seems to be significant differences between what countries report and what was actually done when the UN commissioned a report in 2020, it’s anyone guess what progress has actually been made. In my opinion it’s probably around 10% or low teens now and would be lucky to double that by the end of the project in 2030. The project will probably report a much higher number when it actually finishes. Hopefully it will be funded to continue. It’s probably one of the most important global events environmental projects of the 21st century. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)
- CobaltFire 2y ago
  If you dive into the report that states the 4% number it’s measuring something entirely different than the other numbers, and agrees with the 18% in 2022 number. Specifically the higher percentages are in reported land reclamation out of the 100Ha goal, which was at 17.8Ha in the 2020 report. The 4% is a composite of all targets for the 2030 goals, of which the GGB is only one metric. Be careful in taking these types of articles at face value.
zoklet-enjoyer 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Shelterbelt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Shelterbelt It's not a wall, but similar idea
- inetknght 2y ago
  Oh that's a wonderful place to start learning about some of this in the U.S.A.! Thanks :)
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
thenthenthen 2y ago
There are some projects in China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(China) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(China)

BurningFrog 2y ago

Big bold projects by African dictators to leapfrog the economy has a truly atrocious track record. UN involvement makes it even worse. That said, if it will work long term in some of the countries, that would be great news. I'm glad that it's still possible to destroy an ecosystem in order to replace it with something better. That would never fly in the US. We also have no need to produce more food, and our deserts are mostly beloved natural wonders.

inetknght 2y ago
> Big bold projects by African dictators to leapfrog the economy has a truly atrocious track record. Perhaps, yes. But the Sahara is expanding and reducing the livable area of land in those countries. That can only add to economic strife. On the other hand, building a green wall reduces or eliminates the expansion of the desert and also increases the amount of food available to those countries. I believe that would help reduce the strife between those countries. Yes there's risk of abuse but I think everyone wants to be self-sufficient and anything towards that is laudable. > UN involvement makes it even worse. Can you explain that further? The U.N. is terrible at directly preventing conflict (just look at Ukraine) but I think it has a decent track record of helping countries build their infrastructure. > I'm glad that it's still possible to destroy an ecosystem What? You think building green savannahs is destroying an ecosystem? > That would never fly in the US. I don't know about never but I do think it'd certainly be difficult. > We also have no need to produce more food I disagree. I think we have no appetite to produce more food right now, but the way we're currently growing food is rather asinine. > and our deserts are mostly beloved natural wonders. Mostly, yes. But I think there's plenty of deserts that aren't quite natural wonders.
- rayiner 2y ago
  > Can you explain that further? The U.N. is terrible at directly preventing conflict (just look at Ukraine) but I think it has a decent track record of helping countries build their infrastructure Some UN agencies are very effective, particularly the ones that are basically run by Americans, such as the World Bank. The more third world countries participate in any given agency, the more of a tire fire it is.
  - MomsAVoxell 2y ago
    Could you be more imperialist? Let’s see some examples of well-run UN agencies ‘staffed by Americans’. I guarantee you they are a cesspool of corruption and bigotry.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      Incorrect. Source: am a third worlder, my dad was exiled from the third world for being too conscientious and punctual and spent his career working with UN agencies.
  - inetknght 2y ago
    > The more third world countries participate in any given agency, the more of a tire fire it is. I don't know about other U.N. agencies. But I find Andrew Millison's youtube blogs [0] to be quite interesting on the subject. His blog about refugees [1] for example. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/@amillison https://www.youtube.com/@amillison [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfiH9T-iR3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfiH9T-iR3E
- Xorakios 2y ago
  The Sahara has generally been contracting for the last few decades as the "greener" Sahel band expands north due to higher average rainfall (individual years vary, and the effect is stronger in the west than the east). A Google search will likely list articles citing the 2018 study from UofMaryland that showed approximately a 10% increase in the Sahara's area from 1902-2012, ignoring the portions of that study that said that breaking down by decade showed a reversal in the 1980's. https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/31/9/jcli-d-17-0187.1.xml https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/31/9/jcli-d-... Google maps timeview has a fun animation if you search for Sahara Desert. https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/ https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/
graemep 2y ago
> Big bold projects by African dictators to leapfrog the economy has a truly atrocious track record. This is a multinational project with clear benefits. It is very different from flashy projects like airports no one uses.

teruakohatu 2y ago

According to Wikipedia the wall was reported to be 15% complete in 2019, but found to be actually just 4% complete in 2020, then reportedly 18% in 2022 and 30% last year. Given that is started over 15 years ago and there seems to be significant differences between what countries report and what was actually done when the UN commissioned a report in 2020, it’s anyone guess what progress has actually been made. In my opinion it’s probably around 10% or low teens now and would be lucky to double that by the end of the project in 2030. The project will probably report a much higher number when it actually finishes. Hopefully it will be funded to continue. It’s probably one of the most important global events environmental projects of the 21st century. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)

CobaltFire 2y ago
If you dive into the report that states the 4% number it’s measuring something entirely different than the other numbers, and agrees with the 18% in 2022 number. Specifically the higher percentages are in reported land reclamation out of the 100Ha goal, which was at 17.8Ha in the 2020 report. The 4% is a composite of all targets for the 2030 goals, of which the GGB is only one metric. Be careful in taking these types of articles at face value.

zoklet-enjoyer 2y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Shelterbelt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Shelterbelt It's not a wall, but similar idea

inetknght 2y ago
Oh that's a wonderful place to start learning about some of this in the U.S.A.! Thanks :)

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

thenthenthen 2y ago

There are some projects in China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(China) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(China)