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Reading tfa I kept wondering "is this yet another framework where every click is a server round trip?" Judging by the demos¹, the answer is yes? If this is "th

by dalmo3 1y ago

Reading tfa I kept wondering "is this yet another framework where every click is a server round trip?" Judging by the demos¹, the answer is yes? If this is "the Future", I'm branching off to the timeline where local-first wins. ¹. https://data-star.dev/examples/click_to_edit https://data-star.dev/examples/click_to_edit

sudodevnull 1y ago
Our free shared fly.io was not built to handle hackernews. We are looking into alternatives but in the mean time checkout https://andersmurphy.com/2025/04/07/clojure-realtime-collaborative-web-apps-without-clojurescript.html https://andersmurphy.com/2025/04/07/clojure-realtime-collabo... as it's the same tech but on a slight better machine.
tipiirai 1y ago
A JavaScript framework, built by a person who hates JavaScript doesn’t sound right
- hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
  With additional swipes at ecosystems and ‘must be written in go’ with no real justification as to _why_ more than the developers preference
  - throwaway519 1y ago
    Robust performance, error handling that's not stuck in 1982, and cross platform would be my guesses, but agree the OP could be more spicific as there are more benefits.
    - throw1223323 1y ago
      I hate Go as much as anyone, but it has incredible cross platform support. There's built in cross compilation for building a static binary across window/mac/linux. It's the number 1 feature in Go, lol.
      - hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
        So does C#, python, node and a variety of other languages.
        throwaway519 1y ago
        This comment implies you've not used Go. It really isn't equivalent to the NPM and dependency hell that's node. Or picking the number of workers in Gunicorn. Or.. C#?
        hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
        [flagged]
        cheikhcheikh 1y ago
        Reread the first comment you responded to. It was talking about cross compilation not error handling
        ukuina 1y ago
        There's no real comparison between Python/Node and Golang's cross-compilation.
    - PufPufPuf 1y ago
      By "error handling" in Go you mean "if err == nil" repeating every five lines throughout the codebase?
      - mschoch 1y ago
        [dead]
  - mdhb 1y ago
    I am not in any way “pro go” but it’s also very clear that JS is not the future. I know it’s where a LOT of people are right now but it’s been artificially pumped up to such a massive degree by being literally the only viable choice for the web for the entirety of its existence… and that’s starting to change and from both a technical, performance and development experience it is going to lose when that advantage goes away.
    - joshstrange 1y ago
      > also very clear that JS is not the future I assume you are talking about WebAssembly/WASM/etc? Foreword: I'm not super up-to-date on the state of these things, I'll refer to to as WASM from here on out but if that's not the right term then substitute it for "whatever it is that lets you write code, compile it to something that runs in the browser that isn't JS". I don't think the future is clear at all. Honestly, I'd expect to see some kind of "Compile your JS ahead of time to this WASM bundle" before we see web developers switching over in droves to some other language that can be compiled to WASM. Unless you take over full rendering, my understanding is you have to provide some kinds WASM<->DOM bridge to interact with it, my knowledge may be dated. I write web apps in Javascript (Typescript), real "apps", not "everything should be a SPA just because", and would be interested in anything that improves performance and/or developer experience. There are some data-crunching operations that might run faster in something WASM and/or some aspects that I'd love to share between client and server (and the server can't run JS in this case). That said, everything I have seen is a significant downgrade in developer experience for something that is semi-supported. I look forward to WASM support maturing and the developer experience improving. To my knowledge there is not a Vue/React-WASM-type framework out there yet or any framework for building web apps in WASM (without starting from a blank canvas).
      - rapnie 1y ago
        > To my knowledge there is not a Vue/React-WASM-type framework out there yet or any framework for building web apps in WASM (without starting from a blank canvas). Not sure if these qualify, but these Rust web frameworks use wasm: https://dioxuslabs.com/ https://dioxuslabs.com/ https://leptos.dev/ https://leptos.dev/ https://yew.rs/ https://yew.rs/
  - sudodevnull 1y ago
    Use whatever backend language you want. No justification needed when it's agnostic, even, shocker, JS
infamia 1y ago
idk if I'd put it quite that strongly. https://data-star.dev/examples/dbmon https://data-star.dev/examples/dbmon Also, multiplayer for free on every page due to SSE (if you want it).
fbn79 1y ago
Every time I read "Web Framework" I run. Ripley: These techs are here to protect you. They're frameworks. Newt: It won't make any difference.
- andersmurphy 1y ago
  Here's the thing datastar isn't really a framework in the traditional sense (ruby on rails), you can bring your own backend and use it in a variety of ways. I use it a push based CQRS style, but you just as easily do request/response, hell even polling if that's your thing.
zamalek 1y ago
I think the happy place is somewhere in-between. Use JS to allow the user to build up a request/form (basically DHTML circa 2000), but use one of these hypermedia frameworks when interacting with the server. I think that these are successfully showing that BFFs were a mistake.
tauroid 1y ago
Counterexample with just local signals: https://data-star.dev/guide/getting_started#data-on https://data-star.dev/guide/getting_started#data-on

by dalmo3 1y ago

sudodevnull 1y ago

Our free shared fly.io was not built to handle hackernews. We are looking into alternatives but in the mean time checkout https://andersmurphy.com/2025/04/07/clojure-realtime-collaborative-web-apps-without-clojurescript.html https://andersmurphy.com/2025/04/07/clojure-realtime-collabo... as it's the same tech but on a slight better machine.

tipiirai 1y ago

A JavaScript framework, built by a person who hates JavaScript doesn’t sound right

hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
With additional swipes at ecosystems and ‘must be written in go’ with no real justification as to _why_ more than the developers preference
- throwaway519 1y ago
  Robust performance, error handling that's not stuck in 1982, and cross platform would be my guesses, but agree the OP could be more spicific as there are more benefits.
  - throw1223323 1y ago
    I hate Go as much as anyone, but it has incredible cross platform support. There's built in cross compilation for building a static binary across window/mac/linux. It's the number 1 feature in Go, lol.
    - hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
      So does C#, python, node and a variety of other languages.
      - throwaway519 1y ago
        This comment implies you've not used Go. It really isn't equivalent to the NPM and dependency hell that's node. Or picking the number of workers in Gunicorn. Or.. C#?
        hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
        [flagged]
        cheikhcheikh 1y ago
        Reread the first comment you responded to. It was talking about cross compilation not error handling
      - ukuina 1y ago
        There's no real comparison between Python/Node and Golang's cross-compilation.
  - PufPufPuf 1y ago
    By "error handling" in Go you mean "if err == nil" repeating every five lines throughout the codebase?
    - mschoch 1y ago
      [dead]
- mdhb 1y ago
  I am not in any way “pro go” but it’s also very clear that JS is not the future. I know it’s where a LOT of people are right now but it’s been artificially pumped up to such a massive degree by being literally the only viable choice for the web for the entirety of its existence… and that’s starting to change and from both a technical, performance and development experience it is going to lose when that advantage goes away.
  - joshstrange 1y ago
    > also very clear that JS is not the future I assume you are talking about WebAssembly/WASM/etc? Foreword: I'm not super up-to-date on the state of these things, I'll refer to to as WASM from here on out but if that's not the right term then substitute it for "whatever it is that lets you write code, compile it to something that runs in the browser that isn't JS". I don't think the future is clear at all. Honestly, I'd expect to see some kind of "Compile your JS ahead of time to this WASM bundle" before we see web developers switching over in droves to some other language that can be compiled to WASM. Unless you take over full rendering, my understanding is you have to provide some kinds WASM<->DOM bridge to interact with it, my knowledge may be dated. I write web apps in Javascript (Typescript), real "apps", not "everything should be a SPA just because", and would be interested in anything that improves performance and/or developer experience. There are some data-crunching operations that might run faster in something WASM and/or some aspects that I'd love to share between client and server (and the server can't run JS in this case). That said, everything I have seen is a significant downgrade in developer experience for something that is semi-supported. I look forward to WASM support maturing and the developer experience improving. To my knowledge there is not a Vue/React-WASM-type framework out there yet or any framework for building web apps in WASM (without starting from a blank canvas).
    - rapnie 1y ago
      > To my knowledge there is not a Vue/React-WASM-type framework out there yet or any framework for building web apps in WASM (without starting from a blank canvas). Not sure if these qualify, but these Rust web frameworks use wasm: https://dioxuslabs.com/ https://dioxuslabs.com/ https://leptos.dev/ https://leptos.dev/ https://yew.rs/ https://yew.rs/
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  Use whatever backend language you want. No justification needed when it's agnostic, even, shocker, JS

infamia 1y ago

idk if I'd put it quite that strongly. https://data-star.dev/examples/dbmon https://data-star.dev/examples/dbmon Also, multiplayer for free on every page due to SSE (if you want it).

fbn79 1y ago

Every time I read "Web Framework" I run. Ripley: These techs are here to protect you. They're frameworks. Newt: It won't make any difference.

andersmurphy 1y ago
Here's the thing datastar isn't really a framework in the traditional sense (ruby on rails), you can bring your own backend and use it in a variety of ways. I use it a push based CQRS style, but you just as easily do request/response, hell even polling if that's your thing.

zamalek 1y ago

I think the happy place is somewhere in-between. Use JS to allow the user to build up a request/form (basically DHTML circa 2000), but use one of these hypermedia frameworks when interacting with the server. I think that these are successfully showing that BFFs were a mistake.

tauroid 1y ago

Counterexample with just local signals: https://data-star.dev/guide/getting_started#data-on https://data-star.dev/guide/getting_started#data-on