3 ms·

You mean as opposed to the American national idea of "work or starve, bitch"?

bpodgursky 2y ago
If you ever visited America, it would immediately strike you that no Americans, rich or poor, black or white, are starving. Frankly, we could all use a little more starving.
- pmags 2y ago
  The actual data about food insecurity from the USDA tells quite a different story: https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=109895&v=8442.7 https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=1098... In 2023...13.5 percent (18.0 million households) were food insecure. Food-insecure households (those with low and very low food security) had difficulty at some time during the year providing enough food for all their members because of a lack of resources...5.1 percent of U.S. households (6.8 million households) had very low food security... Coincidentally, the collection of such detailed and useful data is at risk from the indiscriminate USDA firings.
  - marcusverus 2y ago
    So it's a totally subjective metric which measures whether anyone claims to have "had difficulty" buying food at least once during a calendar year. Not that they didn't get enough food--just that they had to exert effort to get it. This is not evidence that people are going hungry, though it is clearly designed to give that impression.
    - pmags 2y ago
      Talk about a bad faith response. No counter data presented. Just deny and distract. Here's collaborating trends for the same calendar year: https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assistance-participation https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assi... Feeding America estimates more than 50 million people received charitable food assistance sometime in 2023 I'm guessing you'll respond that charities that feed people have a vested interest and are not to be trusted... (yes, I'm aware of cases of charities committing fraud; no there is no evidence that is the norm). Probably again without presenting data to support your assertion that there are no Americans who go hungry. I'm curious what actually obtainable data you would accept as a counterfactual to your statement/belief?
      - amadeuspagel 2y ago
        Receiving charitable food assistance doesn't mean that you're starving, or even that you would be starving without that assistance. What sort of data would you accept to prove that americans are not starving?
        pmags 2y ago
        Above I've already pointed to TWO types of data that bear on food insecurity in the US, and provided citations: 1. USDA data on food insecurity 2. Food bank usage data If you wanted to understand the extremes of food insecurity, than data on malnutrition related deaths in the US would also apply: • Mostafa, N., Sayed, A., Rashad, O. et al. Malnutrition-related mortality trends in older adults in the United States from 1999 to 2020. BMC Med 21, 421 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12916-023-03143-8 https://doi.org/10.1186/s12916-023-03143-8 From the paper above -- "Despite some initial decrements in malnutrition mortality among older adults in the U.S., the uptrend from 2013 to 2020 nullified all established progress. The end result is that malnutrition mortality rates represent a historical high...Effective interventions are strongly needed. Such interventions should aim to ensure food security and early detection and remedy of malnutrition among older adults..." If you wanted to explore malnutrition related deaths for other groups / time periods you could query the CDC Wonder data base using ICD-10 Codes E40 – E46 (as was done in the paper cited above; see also https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/E00-E89/E40-E46 https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/E00-E89/E40-E46). • https://wonder.cdc.gov/ https://wonder.cdc.gov/ -- Search CDC Wonder for underlying cause of death I did the query for 2023 and found were >22,000 malnutrition related deaths recorded by the CDC. If this number went down significantly I would see that as evidence of a decrease in malnutrition in the US. If this number was near zero I would accept your assertion that no/few Americans are starving. Given the preponderance of data, the notion that one could argue with a straight face that food insecurity in the US is of no concern seems shocking to me.
      - marcusverus 2y ago
        You seem to have lost the thread of the argument. The original comment was > no Americans, rich or poor, black or white, are starving. Frankly, we could all use a little more starving. You responding by providing evidence that some people had difficulty, at least once per year, in putting food on the table. This in no way contradicts the original claim, as having difficulty doing a thing is not synonymous with being unable to do a thing. > Here's collaborating trends for the same calendar year This shows that people are getting food. As presented, this is not evidence that people are going hungry. > I'm curious what actually obtainable data you would accept as a counterfactual to your statement/belief? If you want to contradict the claim that Americans aren't starving, you would want to provide evidence that Americans are starving.
- eli_gottlieb 2y ago
  I've lived most of my life in America, where I was born.

If you ever visited America, it would immediately strike you that no Americans, rich or poor, black or white, are starving. Frankly, we could all use a little more starving.

pmags 2y ago
The actual data about food insecurity from the USDA tells quite a different story: https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=109895&v=8442.7 https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=1098... In 2023...13.5 percent (18.0 million households) were food insecure. Food-insecure households (those with low and very low food security) had difficulty at some time during the year providing enough food for all their members because of a lack of resources...5.1 percent of U.S. households (6.8 million households) had very low food security... Coincidentally, the collection of such detailed and useful data is at risk from the indiscriminate USDA firings.
- marcusverus 2y ago
  So it's a totally subjective metric which measures whether anyone claims to have "had difficulty" buying food at least once during a calendar year. Not that they didn't get enough food--just that they had to exert effort to get it. This is not evidence that people are going hungry, though it is clearly designed to give that impression.
  - pmags 2y ago
    Talk about a bad faith response. No counter data presented. Just deny and distract. Here's collaborating trends for the same calendar year: https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assistance-participation https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assi... Feeding America estimates more than 50 million people received charitable food assistance sometime in 2023 I'm guessing you'll respond that charities that feed people have a vested interest and are not to be trusted... (yes, I'm aware of cases of charities committing fraud; no there is no evidence that is the norm). Probably again without presenting data to support your assertion that there are no Americans who go hungry. I'm curious what actually obtainable data you would accept as a counterfactual to your statement/belief?
    - amadeuspagel 2y ago
      Receiving charitable food assistance doesn't mean that you're starving, or even that you would be starving without that assistance. What sort of data would you accept to prove that americans are not starving?
      - pmags 2y ago
        Above I've already pointed to TWO types of data that bear on food insecurity in the US, and provided citations: 1. USDA data on food insecurity 2. Food bank usage data If you wanted to understand the extremes of food insecurity, than data on malnutrition related deaths in the US would also apply: • Mostafa, N., Sayed, A., Rashad, O. et al. Malnutrition-related mortality trends in older adults in the United States from 1999 to 2020. BMC Med 21, 421 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12916-023-03143-8 https://doi.org/10.1186/s12916-023-03143-8 From the paper above -- "Despite some initial decrements in malnutrition mortality among older adults in the U.S., the uptrend from 2013 to 2020 nullified all established progress. The end result is that malnutrition mortality rates represent a historical high...Effective interventions are strongly needed. Such interventions should aim to ensure food security and early detection and remedy of malnutrition among older adults..." If you wanted to explore malnutrition related deaths for other groups / time periods you could query the CDC Wonder data base using ICD-10 Codes E40 – E46 (as was done in the paper cited above; see also https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/E00-E89/E40-E46 https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/E00-E89/E40-E46). • https://wonder.cdc.gov/ https://wonder.cdc.gov/ -- Search CDC Wonder for underlying cause of death I did the query for 2023 and found were >22,000 malnutrition related deaths recorded by the CDC. If this number went down significantly I would see that as evidence of a decrease in malnutrition in the US. If this number was near zero I would accept your assertion that no/few Americans are starving. Given the preponderance of data, the notion that one could argue with a straight face that food insecurity in the US is of no concern seems shocking to me.
    - marcusverus 2y ago
      You seem to have lost the thread of the argument. The original comment was > no Americans, rich or poor, black or white, are starving. Frankly, we could all use a little more starving. You responding by providing evidence that some people had difficulty, at least once per year, in putting food on the table. This in no way contradicts the original claim, as having difficulty doing a thing is not synonymous with being unable to do a thing. > Here's collaborating trends for the same calendar year This shows that people are getting food. As presented, this is not evidence that people are going hungry. > I'm curious what actually obtainable data you would accept as a counterfactual to your statement/belief? If you want to contradict the claim that Americans aren't starving, you would want to provide evidence that Americans are starving.
eli_gottlieb 2y ago
I've lived most of my life in America, where I was born.