6 ms·

Germany has no national idea, they have no reason why an average burger should work his/her ass off competing with Chinese/American/Indian scientists and workin

by slt2021 2y ago

Germany has no national idea, they have no reason why an average burger should work his/her ass off competing with Chinese/American/Indian scientists and working 80 hr/week on cutting edge research. Germans are smart and capable, but the German lifestyle is not for "super high tech" industry

tene80i 2y ago
What’s your proposal? Give up?
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  We should stop treating any kind of patriotism and German culture like it is from the devil.
  - eli_gottlieb 2y ago
    Sounds like you kinda just want an excuse to vote AfD without pointing to an element of their policy platform you think the rest of us should support too.
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      Q.E.D (Just for the record I don't vote AfD. I do like being German and I like what little culture we have left. You can be patriotic and at the same time left leaning.)
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - eli_gottlieb 2y ago
        Ok, so what policies do you like about BWS, then?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - pixelpoet 2y ago
      Gruß aus Frankfurt, you really couldn't have proven his point any better if you tried. Some countries are approximately 50% national flag by surface area, fist pumping and chanting the country's name at every opportunity despite being run by people making Nazi salutes, but "it's okay to like your country's culture" is instantly equated with Nazism? Come on man...
      - selfmodruntime 2y ago
        I agree with your comment. It's also funny and sad to see the political and mental disconnect in this topic. Now that we need more military, people are surprised that there is no one who wants to defend a country that's just an arbitrary collection of people with no shared identity.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - slt2021 2y ago
    I would say Germany needs to redefine what patriotism is. It currently has too many dual passport holders, and people with dual loyalties who do not put the long-term interests of Germany first, but rather consider Germany only as a source of welfare to extract and transfer elsewhere
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      The erosion of a shared German culture for decades leaves us with the result of having no national identity. Make no mistake, I'm not alluding to purism of the natives one bit. On the contrary, I would love for immigrants to be proud to be part of Germany. In the US, immigrants make a point of showing their patriotism by immersing themselves into American culture. We don't have a similar cultural phenomenon in Germany. > consider Germany only as a source of welfare to extract and transfer elsewhere You would be surprised how many natives share this viewpoint. This can only work for so long before something collapses...
- ernst_klim 2y ago
  Germany is actively killing innovation. I propose to stop for starters. Tho when the median voter is 55 and national motto is "that's how it was always done" and "Pensions are secure" - I don't put much hope. I still remember the outcry when the digital health cards were introduced.
  - mk89 2y ago
    Not sure how Germany is actively killing innovation to be honest. Your other points are more or less true, I just like to think that people complain a lot and media obviously makes it worse. Digital health cards, online tax declaration, etc. These things did happen. People complained, but these decisions were not reverted. That's the most important.
    - ernst_klim 2y ago
      > Not sure how Germany is actively killing innovation to be honest By many things at once: Datenschutz, (over- and premature) regulations, bureaucracy, laws favoring old ways (e.g. broadcasting licenses for streamers), active sabotage from workers who don't want to learn things (and can't be fired) etc. But all stems from risk averseness and active unwillingness to learn new ways. As you say, (some) things did happened, but way too slow and way too little. Compared to its peers or especially developing countries German Digitalisierung is a joke, a not so funny one.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I hope this works out (even if it's a net negative for the US). I have worked with German engineers, and have been quite impressed. I sincerely wish Germany luck. They'd better do a good job of securing their IP, though...
bcye 2y ago
What is the national idea of the other listed countries in comparison? Also: a "national idea" isn't the only reason people do cutting edge research.
- slt2021 2y ago
  you need an idea in order to mobilize the energy of the population. German passionary patriotism has been artificially subverted and shut down, and the nation instead has been flooded with non-Germanic elements, thus completely destroying the very definition of German. Ask any German on the street, and nobody will be able to answer: What defines being a German, who are the Germans, what is their history, and what awaits German people in the future. Complete void of any ideology, national idea, any energy that could propel the nation in the great leap forward.
  - staunton 2y ago
    > the great leap forward ... doesn't sound very desirable, with how things by that name have gone historically.
  - bcye 2y ago
    > German passionary patriotism has been artificially subverted and shut down, and the nation instead has been flooded with non-Germanic elements, thus completely destroying the very definition of German. > Ask any German on the street, and nobody will be able to answer: What defines being a German, who are the Germans, what is their history, and what awaits German people in the future. I don't think so, you will meet plently people that will be able to tell you about Germany's history, or at least recent history. And what defines being German, you might get different answers, but is that so bad, and where wouldn't you? Hasn't multiculturalism just become a big part of Germany's identity, and not destroyed it as you claim? Döner just as the simplest example.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      Are you seriously claiming that Döner is a German culture???? Not schnitzel, not bratwurts, but doner?? Your post highlights all the problems with modern Germany
fxtentacle 2y ago
The people I know that do cutting-edge research mostly do it because it's fun. That might be hard to imagine, but if you have great (government-funded) local hackerspaces where you can meet others, talk to them and built stuff together, it becomes a viable free-time activity. For example, I can schedule a Prusa (FDM) / Form (SLA) / Fuse (SLS) print job remotely and then quickly walk there to pick it up. If I need custom sheet metal or wood, I'll bring a USB stick with the DXF and then walk. That kind of infrastructure massively cuts down on iteration times. Plus it's great to get feedback in-person by other tinkerers when you pick things up.
- ernst_klim 2y ago
  That's all good and well, but the very time you would try to start selling your tinkering, or, God forbid, hire somebody - that's where the hell begins. Being a self-employed is a living hell in Germany, as well as receiving any money outside of employment. Esp. if money are small (but > than hobby money, 500 euro iirc) and don't justify the hurdle of dealing with Finanzamt, tax pre-payment, possible regulations with upfront Formulars etc.
eli_gottlieb 2y ago
You mean as opposed to the American national idea of "work or starve, bitch"?
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  If you ever visited America, it would immediately strike you that no Americans, rich or poor, black or white, are starving. Frankly, we could all use a little more starving.
  - pmags 2y ago
    The actual data about food insecurity from the USDA tells quite a different story: https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=109895&v=8442.7 https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=1098... In 2023...13.5 percent (18.0 million households) were food insecure. Food-insecure households (those with low and very low food security) had difficulty at some time during the year providing enough food for all their members because of a lack of resources...5.1 percent of U.S. households (6.8 million households) had very low food security... Coincidentally, the collection of such detailed and useful data is at risk from the indiscriminate USDA firings.
    - marcusverus 2y ago
      So it's a totally subjective metric which measures whether anyone claims to have "had difficulty" buying food at least once during a calendar year. Not that they didn't get enough food--just that they had to exert effort to get it. This is not evidence that people are going hungry, though it is clearly designed to give that impression.
      - pmags 2y ago
        Talk about a bad faith response. No counter data presented. Just deny and distract. Here's collaborating trends for the same calendar year: https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assistance-participation https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assi... Feeding America estimates more than 50 million people received charitable food assistance sometime in 2023 I'm guessing you'll respond that charities that feed people have a vested interest and are not to be trusted... (yes, I'm aware of cases of charities committing fraud; no there is no evidence that is the norm). Probably again without presenting data to support your assertion that there are no Americans who go hungry. I'm curious what actually obtainable data you would accept as a counterfactual to your statement/belief?

tene80i 2y ago

What’s your proposal? Give up?

selfmodruntime 2y ago
We should stop treating any kind of patriotism and German culture like it is from the devil.
- eli_gottlieb 2y ago
  Sounds like you kinda just want an excuse to vote AfD without pointing to an element of their policy platform you think the rest of us should support too.
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    Q.E.D (Just for the record I don't vote AfD. I do like being German and I like what little culture we have left. You can be patriotic and at the same time left leaning.)
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - eli_gottlieb 2y ago
      Ok, so what policies do you like about BWS, then?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - pixelpoet 2y ago
    Gruß aus Frankfurt, you really couldn't have proven his point any better if you tried. Some countries are approximately 50% national flag by surface area, fist pumping and chanting the country's name at every opportunity despite being run by people making Nazi salutes, but "it's okay to like your country's culture" is instantly equated with Nazism? Come on man...
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      I agree with your comment. It's also funny and sad to see the political and mental disconnect in this topic. Now that we need more military, people are surprised that there is no one who wants to defend a country that's just an arbitrary collection of people with no shared identity.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    [flagged]
- slt2021 2y ago
  I would say Germany needs to redefine what patriotism is. It currently has too many dual passport holders, and people with dual loyalties who do not put the long-term interests of Germany first, but rather consider Germany only as a source of welfare to extract and transfer elsewhere
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    The erosion of a shared German culture for decades leaves us with the result of having no national identity. Make no mistake, I'm not alluding to purism of the natives one bit. On the contrary, I would love for immigrants to be proud to be part of Germany. In the US, immigrants make a point of showing their patriotism by immersing themselves into American culture. We don't have a similar cultural phenomenon in Germany. > consider Germany only as a source of welfare to extract and transfer elsewhere You would be surprised how many natives share this viewpoint. This can only work for so long before something collapses...
ernst_klim 2y ago
Germany is actively killing innovation. I propose to stop for starters. Tho when the median voter is 55 and national motto is "that's how it was always done" and "Pensions are secure" - I don't put much hope. I still remember the outcry when the digital health cards were introduced.
- mk89 2y ago
  Not sure how Germany is actively killing innovation to be honest. Your other points are more or less true, I just like to think that people complain a lot and media obviously makes it worse. Digital health cards, online tax declaration, etc. These things did happen. People complained, but these decisions were not reverted. That's the most important.
  - ernst_klim 2y ago
    > Not sure how Germany is actively killing innovation to be honest By many things at once: Datenschutz, (over- and premature) regulations, bureaucracy, laws favoring old ways (e.g. broadcasting licenses for streamers), active sabotage from workers who don't want to learn things (and can't be fired) etc. But all stems from risk averseness and active unwillingness to learn new ways. As you say, (some) things did happened, but way too slow and way too little. Compared to its peers or especially developing countries German Digitalisierung is a joke, a not so funny one.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

I hope this works out (even if it's a net negative for the US). I have worked with German engineers, and have been quite impressed. I sincerely wish Germany luck. They'd better do a good job of securing their IP, though...

bcye 2y ago

What is the national idea of the other listed countries in comparison? Also: a "national idea" isn't the only reason people do cutting edge research.

slt2021 2y ago
you need an idea in order to mobilize the energy of the population. German passionary patriotism has been artificially subverted and shut down, and the nation instead has been flooded with non-Germanic elements, thus completely destroying the very definition of German. Ask any German on the street, and nobody will be able to answer: What defines being a German, who are the Germans, what is their history, and what awaits German people in the future. Complete void of any ideology, national idea, any energy that could propel the nation in the great leap forward.
- staunton 2y ago
  > the great leap forward ... doesn't sound very desirable, with how things by that name have gone historically.
- bcye 2y ago
  > German passionary patriotism has been artificially subverted and shut down, and the nation instead has been flooded with non-Germanic elements, thus completely destroying the very definition of German. > Ask any German on the street, and nobody will be able to answer: What defines being a German, who are the Germans, what is their history, and what awaits German people in the future. I don't think so, you will meet plently people that will be able to tell you about Germany's history, or at least recent history. And what defines being German, you might get different answers, but is that so bad, and where wouldn't you? Hasn't multiculturalism just become a big part of Germany's identity, and not destroyed it as you claim? Döner just as the simplest example.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    Are you seriously claiming that Döner is a German culture???? Not schnitzel, not bratwurts, but doner?? Your post highlights all the problems with modern Germany

fxtentacle 2y ago

The people I know that do cutting-edge research mostly do it because it's fun. That might be hard to imagine, but if you have great (government-funded) local hackerspaces where you can meet others, talk to them and built stuff together, it becomes a viable free-time activity. For example, I can schedule a Prusa (FDM) / Form (SLA) / Fuse (SLS) print job remotely and then quickly walk there to pick it up. If I need custom sheet metal or wood, I'll bring a USB stick with the DXF and then walk. That kind of infrastructure massively cuts down on iteration times. Plus it's great to get feedback in-person by other tinkerers when you pick things up.

ernst_klim 2y ago
That's all good and well, but the very time you would try to start selling your tinkering, or, God forbid, hire somebody - that's where the hell begins. Being a self-employed is a living hell in Germany, as well as receiving any money outside of employment. Esp. if money are small (but > than hobby money, 500 euro iirc) and don't justify the hurdle of dealing with Finanzamt, tax pre-payment, possible regulations with upfront Formulars etc.

eli_gottlieb 2y ago

You mean as opposed to the American national idea of "work or starve, bitch"?

bpodgursky 2y ago
If you ever visited America, it would immediately strike you that no Americans, rich or poor, black or white, are starving. Frankly, we could all use a little more starving.
- pmags 2y ago
  The actual data about food insecurity from the USDA tells quite a different story: https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=109895&v=8442.7 https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details?pubid=1098... In 2023...13.5 percent (18.0 million households) were food insecure. Food-insecure households (those with low and very low food security) had difficulty at some time during the year providing enough food for all their members because of a lack of resources...5.1 percent of U.S. households (6.8 million households) had very low food security... Coincidentally, the collection of such detailed and useful data is at risk from the indiscriminate USDA firings.
  - marcusverus 2y ago
    So it's a totally subjective metric which measures whether anyone claims to have "had difficulty" buying food at least once during a calendar year. Not that they didn't get enough food--just that they had to exert effort to get it. This is not evidence that people are going hungry, though it is clearly designed to give that impression.
    - pmags 2y ago
      Talk about a bad faith response. No counter data presented. Just deny and distract. Here's collaborating trends for the same calendar year: https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assistance-participation https://www.feedingamerica.org/research/charitable-food-assi... Feeding America estimates more than 50 million people received charitable food assistance sometime in 2023 I'm guessing you'll respond that charities that feed people have a vested interest and are not to be trusted... (yes, I'm aware of cases of charities committing fraud; no there is no evidence that is the norm). Probably again without presenting data to support your assertion that there are no Americans who go hungry. I'm curious what actually obtainable data you would accept as a counterfactual to your statement/belief?