8 ms·

Many German companies want „Digitalisierung“, workflow automation, process improvements, they want to use AI, LLMs, but when it comes to implementing all of tha

Many German companies want „Digitalisierung“, workflow automation, process improvements, they want to use AI, LLMs, but when it comes to implementing all of that, they are drowning in bureaucracy. What Germans can do is create layers of bureaucracy.

hobofan 2y ago
Yeah, I'm sure a thousand lovely Horizon 2040 funded research projects that result in throwaway academic solutions to hyper-specific industry issues where the first MVP is shown after 5 years will come out of this.
- nextos 2y ago
  Not even throwaway. They will result in reports and keynote presentations, but nothing truly functional. The EU doesn't understand how to structure incentives to make things work and avoid rent-seekers and grifters. Source, I've been part of some large EU consortia. Never again.
  - markus_zhang 2y ago
    Reminds me of a quote from "Yes minister" in which it says one commissioner pays a farmer a lot of money to produce and another to remove the surplus, plus a lot of paper pushing in the middle.
  - twothreeone 2y ago
    Yeah, I was always surprised by how many organizations will actually jump at the opportunity to "participate" when some EU consortia was announcing a new program or funding round. There's a saying for that in German involving "feeding trough" and "pigs".
thinkindie 2y ago
LOL - I can second that. There are a lot of memes about nothing screams more "Digitalisierung!" than having to send papers via fax. Or having to carry cash coz a lot of places don't even give you the option to pay by card (even though this seems to come to an end, hello 2025!)
- submeta 2y ago
  Random German company: You open your intranet, manually search through hundreds of (pdf!) application-forms (because search is not implemented), downlod the right form, print it(!), fill the form, sign it, scan the paper, send it to the ticket system. That’s what they call „Digitalisierung“, because previously they had to send the printed paper-form to the helpdesk team.
  - calmoo 2y ago
    I recently signed up for a simple prepaid phone plan in Germany (I have lived here for 2 years already, fully registered etc). I had to go through the full KYC process, after waiting over a week for a physical SIM card to be sent by post to me. After this, I wanted an eSIM (this was my original goal but this was not possible on initial signup). I had to contact customer support to send me one... by post. They only activate and send eSIMs by mail. This will take another week.
    - bcye 2y ago
      How recently? Nowadays there are a bunch of "app eSIM" companies competing in Germany that offer to get you an eSIM by just installing an app, KYC and credit card in 5 min
      - calmoo 2y ago
        A few days ago - I had some strict requirements of extremely low monthly cost (I only need it for sending and receiving SMS and for signing up for certain german services that require a German number) - so I want with O2 Prepaid. There are a lot of instant sign up eSIMs that are data only, which is not what I'm looking for. I would be surprised if you're talking about an eSIM service that give you a phone number.
        gumarn_y 2y ago
        [dead]
rrr_oh_man 2y ago
The problem is not the bureaucracy. Nobody's stopping a local mid-market manufacturer from automating workflows. Or hindering a utility company from offering a better service process. The problem is corporate leadership. German companies tend to be run by people who are inflexible, uninspired, and cheap. Maybe it's in the culture. Compare this to Austria, where there's a cultural flair for the dramatic (and therefore an eagerness to stand out, even if it's weird) or Switzerland where enterprises, public or private, are not afraid to place big bets.
- calmoo 2y ago
  Both can be true, and what you described is, in my opinion, one of the primary causes of insane bureaucracy in Germany. This inflexible mindset is what causes the relentless enforcement of bureaucracy and procedures in Germany, there is very little leeway here in terms of bending the rules, making exceptions, turning a blind eye. This cultural inflexibility, traditionalism and risk-aversion all ties together into a paperwork and red-tape nigthmare.
  - ost-ing 2y ago
    Sums it up pretty well
    - hyllos 2y ago
      I challenge this: How do you measure processing time? From first customer interaction? Or from all input data are present? I assume in most situations they are not present upfront. Therefore it’s a tedious back and forth. Sure, that compounds with the roundtrip time. Digitisation is a trap because it doesn’t change the paradigm to full-kit upfront necessarily. Digitisation can be a nice entry-point to this, but unfortunately digitising data does not necessarily introduce the full-kit. The system needs to be designed in a different way: “We guarantee processing within x hours (weekdays) from the point you’ve provided us a full-kit.” This, in turn, requires thinking backwards from the result through all steps, resulting in a definition of what a full-kit entails. Of course this requires a different (system) thinking which is contradicted by the rigid hierarchy (and no, doing away with the hierarchy isn’t a solution either). Work force would not be busy 80% of their time = capacity to go back and forth to figure what’s missing and switch around cases. When starting with full-kit, 80% of their wasted time becomes processing time. In turn, their throughput was 20%, it goes up to 100%, or x5.
HellDunkel 2y ago
In the examples you mentioned bureaucracy is less of a problem. They could do it but this is hard work in a sense which the culture does not reward. The problem with germans in general is that they are unwilling or badly trained in „thinking things to the end“. The will start a „Digitalisierungsministerium“ without a clear goal of what they want to achieve let alone how to get there. In the end they will waste a lot of money on ipads and businesses lock them into their ecosystems so the can‘t get out. It all goes back to the culture and a rigid educational system where everyone is supposed to stay where they are.
KurSix 2y ago
To be fair though, once they do get through all those layers, the end result is often incredibly well-structured and precise
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  Yes. But also "flexible like a closet", "well, but this is how we always did things around here".

hobofan 2y ago

Yeah, I'm sure a thousand lovely Horizon 2040 funded research projects that result in throwaway academic solutions to hyper-specific industry issues where the first MVP is shown after 5 years will come out of this.

nextos 2y ago
Not even throwaway. They will result in reports and keynote presentations, but nothing truly functional. The EU doesn't understand how to structure incentives to make things work and avoid rent-seekers and grifters. Source, I've been part of some large EU consortia. Never again.
- markus_zhang 2y ago
  Reminds me of a quote from "Yes minister" in which it says one commissioner pays a farmer a lot of money to produce and another to remove the surplus, plus a lot of paper pushing in the middle.
- twothreeone 2y ago
  Yeah, I was always surprised by how many organizations will actually jump at the opportunity to "participate" when some EU consortia was announcing a new program or funding round. There's a saying for that in German involving "feeding trough" and "pigs".

thinkindie 2y ago

LOL - I can second that. There are a lot of memes about nothing screams more "Digitalisierung!" than having to send papers via fax. Or having to carry cash coz a lot of places don't even give you the option to pay by card (even though this seems to come to an end, hello 2025!)

submeta 2y ago
Random German company: You open your intranet, manually search through hundreds of (pdf!) application-forms (because search is not implemented), downlod the right form, print it(!), fill the form, sign it, scan the paper, send it to the ticket system. That’s what they call „Digitalisierung“, because previously they had to send the printed paper-form to the helpdesk team.
- calmoo 2y ago
  I recently signed up for a simple prepaid phone plan in Germany (I have lived here for 2 years already, fully registered etc). I had to go through the full KYC process, after waiting over a week for a physical SIM card to be sent by post to me. After this, I wanted an eSIM (this was my original goal but this was not possible on initial signup). I had to contact customer support to send me one... by post. They only activate and send eSIMs by mail. This will take another week.
  - bcye 2y ago
    How recently? Nowadays there are a bunch of "app eSIM" companies competing in Germany that offer to get you an eSIM by just installing an app, KYC and credit card in 5 min
    - calmoo 2y ago
      A few days ago - I had some strict requirements of extremely low monthly cost (I only need it for sending and receiving SMS and for signing up for certain german services that require a German number) - so I want with O2 Prepaid. There are a lot of instant sign up eSIMs that are data only, which is not what I'm looking for. I would be surprised if you're talking about an eSIM service that give you a phone number.
      - gumarn_y 2y ago
        [dead]

rrr_oh_man 2y ago

The problem is not the bureaucracy. Nobody's stopping a local mid-market manufacturer from automating workflows. Or hindering a utility company from offering a better service process. The problem is corporate leadership. German companies tend to be run by people who are inflexible, uninspired, and cheap. Maybe it's in the culture. Compare this to Austria, where there's a cultural flair for the dramatic (and therefore an eagerness to stand out, even if it's weird) or Switzerland where enterprises, public or private, are not afraid to place big bets.

calmoo 2y ago
Both can be true, and what you described is, in my opinion, one of the primary causes of insane bureaucracy in Germany. This inflexible mindset is what causes the relentless enforcement of bureaucracy and procedures in Germany, there is very little leeway here in terms of bending the rules, making exceptions, turning a blind eye. This cultural inflexibility, traditionalism and risk-aversion all ties together into a paperwork and red-tape nigthmare.
- ost-ing 2y ago
  Sums it up pretty well
  - hyllos 2y ago
    I challenge this: How do you measure processing time? From first customer interaction? Or from all input data are present? I assume in most situations they are not present upfront. Therefore it’s a tedious back and forth. Sure, that compounds with the roundtrip time. Digitisation is a trap because it doesn’t change the paradigm to full-kit upfront necessarily. Digitisation can be a nice entry-point to this, but unfortunately digitising data does not necessarily introduce the full-kit. The system needs to be designed in a different way: “We guarantee processing within x hours (weekdays) from the point you’ve provided us a full-kit.” This, in turn, requires thinking backwards from the result through all steps, resulting in a definition of what a full-kit entails. Of course this requires a different (system) thinking which is contradicted by the rigid hierarchy (and no, doing away with the hierarchy isn’t a solution either). Work force would not be busy 80% of their time = capacity to go back and forth to figure what’s missing and switch around cases. When starting with full-kit, 80% of their wasted time becomes processing time. In turn, their throughput was 20%, it goes up to 100%, or x5.

HellDunkel 2y ago

In the examples you mentioned bureaucracy is less of a problem. They could do it but this is hard work in a sense which the culture does not reward. The problem with germans in general is that they are unwilling or badly trained in „thinking things to the end“. The will start a „Digitalisierungsministerium“ without a clear goal of what they want to achieve let alone how to get there. In the end they will waste a lot of money on ipads and businesses lock them into their ecosystems so the can‘t get out. It all goes back to the culture and a rigid educational system where everyone is supposed to stay where they are.

KurSix 2y ago

To be fair though, once they do get through all those layers, the end result is often incredibly well-structured and precise

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
Yes. But also "flexible like a closet", "well, but this is how we always did things around here".