5 ms·

In my mind, there's only two acceptable uses of lead: radiation (x-ray, gamma ray) shielding, and ICE batteries. Even then, I expect there's much increased dema

In my mind, there's only two acceptable uses of lead: radiation (x-ray, gamma ray) shielding, and ICE batteries. Even then, I expect there's much increased demand for those things (and thus, the lead to manufacture them) from 50 years ago.

londons_explore 2y ago
Even ICE batteries is IMO not a valid use. Lithium batteries are better by almost every metric, and now nearly every model of car battery has a drop-in compatible lithium battery+controller too, so there isn't even an excuse for vehicles currently on the road. Lead batteries contain not just lead, but the H2SO4 needed to dissolve large amounts of it and transport it through watercourses when the plastic case inevitably cracks.
- alnwlsn 2y ago
  No, but they are dead simple aren't they? Charging them is easy. They can handle super high discharge rates no problem. Construction is simple, only lead, sulfuric acid, and plastic. The materials are cheap, abundant, and recyclable. The battery chemistry is old and well understood. They aren't made from flammable materials, and if one does catch on fire, you can extinguish it using a normal fire extinguisher. They work well at low temperatures, and can be put in storage long term fully charged. About the only downside is they can make hydrogen if overcharged, and are heavy. Too bad they use lead, because it would be too good to be true otherwise. You have to treat lithium batteries like a spoiled child in comparison.
- steve_adams_86 2y ago
  Lead acid batteries still offer far better performance in cold conditions, voltage stability, burst current capacity, and ease of charging. You can overcome most of these issues, but it comes at a significant cost. I think it could be worth it, especially when you factor in that the lithium ion battery could theoretically pay for itself in longer lifespan, but most buyers would prefer the cheap, familiar, reliable option.
- dboreham 2y ago
  In my experience LiIon car batteries are a total pain. Regular battery chargers fry them, or won't turn on to charge. So you need a Li compatible charger. If you let one go flat it bricks and replacements are either very costly or impossible to source locally. I had to have a car transported by flat bed 300 miles to a dealer to have the dead Lithium battery replaced under warranty.
- bsder 2y ago
  > Even ICE batteries is IMO not a valid use. Why? I would posit that lithium batteries do way more damage to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Recycling of lead-acid batteries is very prevalent because it is economically worth it.
  - Tadpole9181 2y ago
    Isn't that implied by the context? Lead is fantastically bad for human health and it's worth the cons to use Li batteries to avoid pulling lead out of the earth and into the chain of human contaminants .
    - bsder 2y ago
      My point is that lead for batteries is aggressively recycled while lithium is almost exclusively pulled from primary extraction and rarely recycled. > Despite the smaller supply of lithium, a study earlier this year in the Journal of the Indian Institute of Science found that less than 1 percent of Lithium-ion batteries get recycled in the US and EU compared to 99 percent of lead-acid batteries, which are most often used in gas vehicles and power grids. https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-of-money-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-... Whenever I buy a lead-acid battery, I always have a core charge and it is a non-trivial percentage of the total cost of the battery. I get that core charge back when I return the old battery. Lithium batteries have nothing comparable.
      - Tadpole9181 2y ago
        That's a fine stance, of course. But you asked "why". The posters above are focused on human health as a concern, over the environmental impact you're focusing on. Just different perspective.
copperx 2y ago
Don't scream at me, but what about non-industrial, hobby soldering? AFAIK soldering is not hot enough to vaporize lead.
- teamonkey 2y ago
  Soldering contamination mainly comes from ingestion. Touching it, having small particles of lead burn off and land on your skin, then in your mouth (or eyes, elsewhere). Even so, by washing hands and wearing light PPE it’s fine. Because if that, many people consider the ban of industrial lead solder to be over-zealous. But that ban is in place to stop consumers being contaminated if they somehow touch the board. Also to minimise lead entering the water table once it is discarded.
  - therein 2y ago
    I love my Kester 40% lead solder and always use gloves when using it. Probably an overkill since I have been soldering since 90s.
  - djmips 2y ago
    Yeah washing your contaminated hands is good for you but but for the water that you washed with and went down the drain.
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  Hobby soldering is still putting lead into the environment, and not with any necessary justification. Lead-free solder works fine. Lead solder is a bit easier, but not enough to matter. I do know as a hobbyist myself who has lived through the transition and know all about both the old and new worlds. The problem isn't vaporizing, or the first consumers direct exposure. The problem is taking a pound of lead and distrubuting it all over the environment in the form of spatter, shavings, assembled pcbs, connections, etc. Probably less than half of the solder winds up in a product or project, and that is just a short delay on it's trip to the envirnment when the project is discarded. 100% of it ends there, and not in a nice solid lump but practically aresolized. It's the same as just taking that same pound of lead and directly grinding it into a fine powder and just sprinkling it everywhere, where it becomes part of the soil more or less and leeches into everything and can't be removed. And 100,000 or a million or many millions of other people all doing the same thing, every day, for generations. Yess millions. There are 300million just in the US alone, and there are more than one person in every 300 that solders at least some times.
bamboozled 2y ago
Fishing tackle.
- triceratops 2y ago
  Why?
  - bobmcnamara 2y ago
    It's so dense.
- ameliaquining 2y ago
  TIL that this is still legal in some states. (I grew up in New Hampshire, which banned lead fishing weights decades ago, mostly to protect loons from eating them.)
  - THroaway225 2y ago
    a lot of people just didnt bother throwing them away out of the bottom of their tackle box

londons_explore 2y ago

Even ICE batteries is IMO not a valid use. Lithium batteries are better by almost every metric, and now nearly every model of car battery has a drop-in compatible lithium battery+controller too, so there isn't even an excuse for vehicles currently on the road. Lead batteries contain not just lead, but the H2SO4 needed to dissolve large amounts of it and transport it through watercourses when the plastic case inevitably cracks.

alnwlsn 2y ago
No, but they are dead simple aren't they? Charging them is easy. They can handle super high discharge rates no problem. Construction is simple, only lead, sulfuric acid, and plastic. The materials are cheap, abundant, and recyclable. The battery chemistry is old and well understood. They aren't made from flammable materials, and if one does catch on fire, you can extinguish it using a normal fire extinguisher. They work well at low temperatures, and can be put in storage long term fully charged. About the only downside is they can make hydrogen if overcharged, and are heavy. Too bad they use lead, because it would be too good to be true otherwise. You have to treat lithium batteries like a spoiled child in comparison.
steve_adams_86 2y ago
Lead acid batteries still offer far better performance in cold conditions, voltage stability, burst current capacity, and ease of charging. You can overcome most of these issues, but it comes at a significant cost. I think it could be worth it, especially when you factor in that the lithium ion battery could theoretically pay for itself in longer lifespan, but most buyers would prefer the cheap, familiar, reliable option.
dboreham 2y ago
In my experience LiIon car batteries are a total pain. Regular battery chargers fry them, or won't turn on to charge. So you need a Li compatible charger. If you let one go flat it bricks and replacements are either very costly or impossible to source locally. I had to have a car transported by flat bed 300 miles to a dealer to have the dead Lithium battery replaced under warranty.
bsder 2y ago
> Even ICE batteries is IMO not a valid use. Why? I would posit that lithium batteries do way more damage to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Recycling of lead-acid batteries is very prevalent because it is economically worth it.
- Tadpole9181 2y ago
  Isn't that implied by the context? Lead is fantastically bad for human health and it's worth the cons to use Li batteries to avoid pulling lead out of the earth and into the chain of human contaminants .
  - bsder 2y ago
    My point is that lead for batteries is aggressively recycled while lithium is almost exclusively pulled from primary extraction and rarely recycled. > Despite the smaller supply of lithium, a study earlier this year in the Journal of the Indian Institute of Science found that less than 1 percent of Lithium-ion batteries get recycled in the US and EU compared to 99 percent of lead-acid batteries, which are most often used in gas vehicles and power grids. https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-of-money-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-... Whenever I buy a lead-acid battery, I always have a core charge and it is a non-trivial percentage of the total cost of the battery. I get that core charge back when I return the old battery. Lithium batteries have nothing comparable.
    - Tadpole9181 2y ago
      That's a fine stance, of course. But you asked "why". The posters above are focused on human health as a concern, over the environmental impact you're focusing on. Just different perspective.

copperx 2y ago

Don't scream at me, but what about non-industrial, hobby soldering? AFAIK soldering is not hot enough to vaporize lead.

teamonkey 2y ago
Soldering contamination mainly comes from ingestion. Touching it, having small particles of lead burn off and land on your skin, then in your mouth (or eyes, elsewhere). Even so, by washing hands and wearing light PPE it’s fine. Because if that, many people consider the ban of industrial lead solder to be over-zealous. But that ban is in place to stop consumers being contaminated if they somehow touch the board. Also to minimise lead entering the water table once it is discarded.
- therein 2y ago
  I love my Kester 40% lead solder and always use gloves when using it. Probably an overkill since I have been soldering since 90s.
- djmips 2y ago
  Yeah washing your contaminated hands is good for you but but for the water that you washed with and went down the drain.
Brian_K_White 2y ago
Hobby soldering is still putting lead into the environment, and not with any necessary justification. Lead-free solder works fine. Lead solder is a bit easier, but not enough to matter. I do know as a hobbyist myself who has lived through the transition and know all about both the old and new worlds. The problem isn't vaporizing, or the first consumers direct exposure. The problem is taking a pound of lead and distrubuting it all over the environment in the form of spatter, shavings, assembled pcbs, connections, etc. Probably less than half of the solder winds up in a product or project, and that is just a short delay on it's trip to the envirnment when the project is discarded. 100% of it ends there, and not in a nice solid lump but practically aresolized. It's the same as just taking that same pound of lead and directly grinding it into a fine powder and just sprinkling it everywhere, where it becomes part of the soil more or less and leeches into everything and can't be removed. And 100,000 or a million or many millions of other people all doing the same thing, every day, for generations. Yess millions. There are 300million just in the US alone, and there are more than one person in every 300 that solders at least some times.

bamboozled 2y ago

Fishing tackle.

triceratops 2y ago
Why?
- bobmcnamara 2y ago
  It's so dense.
ameliaquining 2y ago
TIL that this is still legal in some states. (I grew up in New Hampshire, which banned lead fishing weights decades ago, mostly to protect loons from eating them.)
- THroaway225 2y ago
  a lot of people just didnt bother throwing them away out of the bottom of their tackle box