6 ms·

That's a Lot of YAML

82 points by l0b0 2y ago

fbrchps 2y ago
This format is unreadable on mobile, it keeps opening up my keyboard and scrolling up a bit when it does. I understand and appreciate the "why" of the format, but this also could have been a non-editable "editor-like" presentation and achieved the same result.
- eclipticplane 2y ago
  This site's mobile experience mirrors my feelings when having to edit deeply nested and templated YAML.
  - trallnag 2y ago
    Is editing deeply nested JSON and XML a better experience than YAML? I don't think so.
    - mcpeepants 2y ago
      I’d argue yes, strictly due to the lack of significant whitespace.
      - strunz 2y ago
        That's a really odd reason to prefer something used as a configuration language where readability is important.
- karczex 2y ago
  This site is beautiful in it's own way.
  - efilife 2y ago
    Its. It's is a contraction of it+is
- zzlk 2y ago
  From the bottom of the article: > # ps. By design, this website is as usable as YAML. It's intentionally bad.
  - hnuser123456 2y ago
    And from their own testimonials section: > The good news (I realised) was that you can select all the text of the site, and then delete it. Problem solved.
- efilife 2y ago
  I just read it here: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ghuntley/noyaml/refs/heads/master/index.html https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ghuntley/noyaml/refs/heads...
pankajdoharey 2y ago
All I see is Lisp: #Operator: - Operand 1 - Operand 2
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
AlphaCharlie 2y ago
Yaml is the language nobody needed. All we wanted was a better JSON format that supports comments and doesn’t crash with an extra comma as the end of a list, eg: [1,2,3,]
- watwut 2y ago
  Yes, this.
- karczex 2y ago
  In most cases Yaml is bizarre kind of DSL with tricky way of API interaction. For instance - I don't understand why exactly the same Ansible API isn't just python library?
  - mdaniel 2y ago
    For the same reason any DSL exists: because the programming representation is a lot more verbose than the DSL, due to the computers not currently honoring the "you know what I meant" flag #!/usr/bin/env python3 """A made up example of the line noise""" from ansible import * def main(): hosts = ["localhost"] for h in hosts: run_one_host(h) def run_one_host(inventory_hostname: str): connection = ansible.builtin.ssh(inventory_hostname) print("sniff out the machine's os") host_vars = ansible.builtin.setup(gather_subset="os", connection) if host_vars["distribution"] == "ubuntu": dest = "/etc/apt" else ... dest = "/etc/something else" print("do something awesome") copy_ok = ansible.builtin.copy(src="./some_file", dest=dest, connection) ... That said, I can't readily imagine why you couldn't do exactly what you said because the AnsibleModule[1] contract is JSON over stdin/stdout (and one can write Ansible modules in any programming language[2] - they just default to Python) 1: https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/lib/ansible/module_utils/basic.py#L360 https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/lib/ansible/... 2: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible-core/2.18/dev_guide/developing_program_flow_modules.html#binary-modules https://docs.ansible.com/ansible-core/2.18/dev_guide/develop... and https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/test/integration/targets/binary_modules/library/helloworld.go https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/test/integra...
huem0n 2y ago
Yeah theres some problem, but reading a multiline code block (like github actions bash script) as an indent-escaped string is so much better than having to understand crazy triple-escaped characters like "sed \"\\\\\\"name1\\\\\\\"\""
- stevage 2y ago
  What's even better is just using an actual programming language. Not bash, not sed, not yaml. Just python or NodeJS.
  - mdaniel 2y ago
    This is the same debate folks have between Maven and Gradle: do you want CI code to be able to do *anything* that Python or Node can do, or do you want well defined knobs people can turn. If nothing else, it makes code reviews for CI way less drama than trying to use some bespoke dsl-in-python that re-implements {job: {steps: [{run: ...}]}} in a less legible way
    - stevage 2y ago
      Yeah. My experience has often been that you end up with a task that is very easy and familiar to write in say Bash, that you then have to solve a puzzle to write in Ansible/Puppet/whatever. Which feels exactly like what you're saying: a DSL re-implementing something else in a less legible way. I guess it's like anything: for the right task, the right tool works well. But invariably, a tool will eventually be pushed into use for the wrong task.
  - theamk 2y ago
    you only think until you have to extract some information from it. "Here is a dir full of CI job definitions, find all the ones which require extra permissions" - trivial in yaml or json or toml, could be hard to impossible for Python/nodejs. or "I am doing ci job frontend, for each job I need to get a list of inputs it takes and their description, but without doing full code checkout" - good luck doing this if your jobs are in python/nodejs. (to be fair, there are programming languages that are also severely limited and can be evaluated mostly safely, like Starlark, but I don't think they'd match your definition)
stevage 2y ago
I can take credit for one of these, the 63 ways to wrap a string, on line 156.
- nlawalker 2y ago
  That's what https://yaml-multiline.info https://yaml-multiline.info is for! I know the author's on HN, I hope they chime in here :) Amusingly, the Stack Overflow answer you linked in your contribution is the second result in a Google search for "YAML multiline string" or the like, after yaml-multiline.info; the two combined appear to the canonical resource on the web.
  - stevage 2y ago
    Heh, not sure if you realise, but that website was inspired by my SO answer. (I'm credited at the bottom).
sbennettmcleish 2y ago
When it comes to AWS Cloudformation, I love YAML. Can't think of any other positive use though.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  They should be beaten about the head and shoulders for how atrocious this is: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGuide/intrinsic-function-reference-foreach-example-resource.html#intrinsic-function-reference-foreach-example-replicate-multiple-resources.yaml https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGui... Also, due to it failing to work as advertised, I just use `cfn-lint --info -e` to grab the transformed template and use that for realz.
zombot 2y ago
> # Anyone wondering why their first seven Kubernetes clusters deploy just fine, and the eighth fails? Yay, octal numbers! But don't panic, lots of supposed C programmers fall for exactly the same trick when prefixing numbers with `0`.
PollardsRho 2y ago
I will die on the hill that TOML should be used for the vast majority of what YAML's used for today. There are times a full language is needed, but I've seen so many YAML files that use none of the features YAML has with all of the footguns.
- aiiizzz 2y ago
  But toml isn't any better than yaml. It's difficult to read
- Xiol32 2y ago
  TOML is worse and even harder to read. I'd take YAML any day over TOML.
  - bloppe 2y ago
    Yaml is a sad Icarus parable. The syntax is great but the type inference is too much. I don't see why we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and settle for toml, though. Here's how yaml's type inference should work: - All object keys are strings (with or without quotes) - Value atoms are parsed the exact same way as in JSON5 I'm kinda shocked this isn't a thing. StrictYAML is cool but a bit too cumbersome IMO.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  The thinking that would lead one to the conclusion of "yeah, fine, pick whatever characters you want for the string contents" is a "you are I are solving different problems" https://github.com/toml-lang/toml/blob/1.0.0/toml.md#user-content-string:~:text=TOML%20parsers%20should%20feel%20free%20to%20normalize%20newline%20to%20whatever%20makes%20sense%20for%20their%20platform https://github.com/toml-lang/toml/blob/1.0.0/toml.md#user-co...
soraminazuki 2y ago
YAML's idea of human readability misses the mark. Especially anchors. They're the worst tools for abstraction. JSON with functions as the high level format and JSON as the low level format is the way to go. Examples include Nix and Jsonnet. They're much nicer to deal with and less error prone.
sabslikesobs 2y ago
I'm a big fan of YAML after coming from JSON and, later, ProtoBuf's many definition formats while working at Google---but it's true that there are a lot of oddities in YAML's magical parsing. I'm grateful for the many ways it's possible to quickly an naturally define simple hierarchies of data (for example, in a docker-compose file). This website does the rare thing of, after complaining, providing a long list of alternatives. It's really nice.
tryauuum 2y ago
I like writing yaml (context: I've never had to write 1000-line yaml files for kubernetes)
RadiozRadioz 2y ago
Yawn. I'll keep using XML. While many waste their youth pointlessly reinventing XSDs in YAML/JSON/TOML/JSON5/HJSON, I'll still be here. Living. Content.
lfpeb8b45ez 2y ago
I find the configuration complexity clock always valuable in framing conversations like this: https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-complexity-clock.html?m=1 https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-comple...
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  I wrote a really long blog post about this once without the clock metaphor. This is far superior in illustrating the slippery slope. Aside from that slide too an inevitable dinner with Turing completeness, there's often the problem of sourcing information from multiple files overlaying it backtracking where it's sourced from. Docker files are an example of this, as is the complete list of config values in spring framework (it's like 30 different sources). In addition config starts getting into secured secrets, service invocations, database lookups, operating system commands, and who else knows what. So not only is it really a touring complete problem, it veers into hellscape that is system integration.

82 points by l0b0 2y ago

This format is unreadable on mobile, it keeps opening up my keyboard and scrolling up a bit when it does. I understand and appreciate the "why" of the format, but this also could have been a non-editable "editor-like" presentation and achieved the same result.

eclipticplane 2y ago
This site's mobile experience mirrors my feelings when having to edit deeply nested and templated YAML.
- trallnag 2y ago
  Is editing deeply nested JSON and XML a better experience than YAML? I don't think so.
  - mcpeepants 2y ago
    I’d argue yes, strictly due to the lack of significant whitespace.
    - strunz 2y ago
      That's a really odd reason to prefer something used as a configuration language where readability is important.
karczex 2y ago
This site is beautiful in it's own way.
- efilife 2y ago
  Its. It's is a contraction of it+is
zzlk 2y ago
From the bottom of the article: > # ps. By design, this website is as usable as YAML. It's intentionally bad.
- hnuser123456 2y ago
  And from their own testimonials section: > The good news (I realised) was that you can select all the text of the site, and then delete it. Problem solved.
efilife 2y ago
I just read it here: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ghuntley/noyaml/refs/heads/master/index.html https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ghuntley/noyaml/refs/heads...

pankajdoharey 2y ago

All I see is Lisp: #Operator: - Operand 1 - Operand 2

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

AlphaCharlie 2y ago

Yaml is the language nobody needed. All we wanted was a better JSON format that supports comments and doesn’t crash with an extra comma as the end of a list, eg: [1,2,3,]

watwut 2y ago
Yes, this.
karczex 2y ago
In most cases Yaml is bizarre kind of DSL with tricky way of API interaction. For instance - I don't understand why exactly the same Ansible API isn't just python library?
- mdaniel 2y ago
  For the same reason any DSL exists: because the programming representation is a lot more verbose than the DSL, due to the computers not currently honoring the "you know what I meant" flag #!/usr/bin/env python3 """A made up example of the line noise""" from ansible import * def main(): hosts = ["localhost"] for h in hosts: run_one_host(h) def run_one_host(inventory_hostname: str): connection = ansible.builtin.ssh(inventory_hostname) print("sniff out the machine's os") host_vars = ansible.builtin.setup(gather_subset="os", connection) if host_vars["distribution"] == "ubuntu": dest = "/etc/apt" else ... dest = "/etc/something else" print("do something awesome") copy_ok = ansible.builtin.copy(src="./some_file", dest=dest, connection) ... That said, I can't readily imagine why you couldn't do exactly what you said because the AnsibleModule[1] contract is JSON over stdin/stdout (and one can write Ansible modules in any programming language[2] - they just default to Python) 1: https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/lib/ansible/module_utils/basic.py#L360 https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/lib/ansible/... 2: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible-core/2.18/dev_guide/developing_program_flow_modules.html#binary-modules https://docs.ansible.com/ansible-core/2.18/dev_guide/develop... and https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/test/integration/targets/binary_modules/library/helloworld.go https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.18.4/test/integra...

huem0n 2y ago

Yeah theres some problem, but reading a multiline code block (like github actions bash script) as an indent-escaped string is so much better than having to understand crazy triple-escaped characters like "sed \"\\\\\\"name1\\\\\\\"\""

stevage 2y ago
What's even better is just using an actual programming language. Not bash, not sed, not yaml. Just python or NodeJS.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  This is the same debate folks have between Maven and Gradle: do you want CI code to be able to do *anything* that Python or Node can do, or do you want well defined knobs people can turn. If nothing else, it makes code reviews for CI way less drama than trying to use some bespoke dsl-in-python that re-implements {job: {steps: [{run: ...}]}} in a less legible way
  - stevage 2y ago
    Yeah. My experience has often been that you end up with a task that is very easy and familiar to write in say Bash, that you then have to solve a puzzle to write in Ansible/Puppet/whatever. Which feels exactly like what you're saying: a DSL re-implementing something else in a less legible way. I guess it's like anything: for the right task, the right tool works well. But invariably, a tool will eventually be pushed into use for the wrong task.
- theamk 2y ago
  you only think until you have to extract some information from it. "Here is a dir full of CI job definitions, find all the ones which require extra permissions" - trivial in yaml or json or toml, could be hard to impossible for Python/nodejs. or "I am doing ci job frontend, for each job I need to get a list of inputs it takes and their description, but without doing full code checkout" - good luck doing this if your jobs are in python/nodejs. (to be fair, there are programming languages that are also severely limited and can be evaluated mostly safely, like Starlark, but I don't think they'd match your definition)

stevage 2y ago

I can take credit for one of these, the 63 ways to wrap a string, on line 156.

nlawalker 2y ago
That's what https://yaml-multiline.info https://yaml-multiline.info is for! I know the author's on HN, I hope they chime in here :) Amusingly, the Stack Overflow answer you linked in your contribution is the second result in a Google search for "YAML multiline string" or the like, after yaml-multiline.info; the two combined appear to the canonical resource on the web.
- stevage 2y ago
  Heh, not sure if you realise, but that website was inspired by my SO answer. (I'm credited at the bottom).

sbennettmcleish 2y ago

When it comes to AWS Cloudformation, I love YAML. Can't think of any other positive use though.

mdaniel 2y ago
They should be beaten about the head and shoulders for how atrocious this is: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGuide/intrinsic-function-reference-foreach-example-resource.html#intrinsic-function-reference-foreach-example-replicate-multiple-resources.yaml https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGui... Also, due to it failing to work as advertised, I just use `cfn-lint --info -e` to grab the transformed template and use that for realz.

zombot 2y ago

> # Anyone wondering why their first seven Kubernetes clusters deploy just fine, and the eighth fails? Yay, octal numbers! But don't panic, lots of supposed C programmers fall for exactly the same trick when prefixing numbers with `0`.

PollardsRho 2y ago

I will die on the hill that TOML should be used for the vast majority of what YAML's used for today. There are times a full language is needed, but I've seen so many YAML files that use none of the features YAML has with all of the footguns.

aiiizzz 2y ago
But toml isn't any better than yaml. It's difficult to read
Xiol32 2y ago
TOML is worse and even harder to read. I'd take YAML any day over TOML.
- bloppe 2y ago
  Yaml is a sad Icarus parable. The syntax is great but the type inference is too much. I don't see why we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and settle for toml, though. Here's how yaml's type inference should work: - All object keys are strings (with or without quotes) - Value atoms are parsed the exact same way as in JSON5 I'm kinda shocked this isn't a thing. StrictYAML is cool but a bit too cumbersome IMO.
mdaniel 2y ago
The thinking that would lead one to the conclusion of "yeah, fine, pick whatever characters you want for the string contents" is a "you are I are solving different problems" https://github.com/toml-lang/toml/blob/1.0.0/toml.md#user-content-string:~:text=TOML%20parsers%20should%20feel%20free%20to%20normalize%20newline%20to%20whatever%20makes%20sense%20for%20their%20platform https://github.com/toml-lang/toml/blob/1.0.0/toml.md#user-co...

soraminazuki 2y ago

YAML's idea of human readability misses the mark. Especially anchors. They're the worst tools for abstraction. JSON with functions as the high level format and JSON as the low level format is the way to go. Examples include Nix and Jsonnet. They're much nicer to deal with and less error prone.

sabslikesobs 2y ago

I'm a big fan of YAML after coming from JSON and, later, ProtoBuf's many definition formats while working at Google---but it's true that there are a lot of oddities in YAML's magical parsing. I'm grateful for the many ways it's possible to quickly an naturally define simple hierarchies of data (for example, in a docker-compose file). This website does the rare thing of, after complaining, providing a long list of alternatives. It's really nice.

tryauuum 2y ago

I like writing yaml (context: I've never had to write 1000-line yaml files for kubernetes)

RadiozRadioz 2y ago

Yawn. I'll keep using XML. While many waste their youth pointlessly reinventing XSDs in YAML/JSON/TOML/JSON5/HJSON, I'll still be here. Living. Content.

lfpeb8b45ez 2y ago

I find the configuration complexity clock always valuable in framing conversations like this: https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-complexity-clock.html?m=1 https://mikehadlow.blogspot.com/2012/05/configuration-comple...

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
I wrote a really long blog post about this once without the clock metaphor. This is far superior in illustrating the slippery slope. Aside from that slide too an inevitable dinner with Turing completeness, there's often the problem of sourcing information from multiple files overlaying it backtracking where it's sourced from. Docker files are an example of this, as is the complete list of config values in spring framework (it's like 30 different sources). In addition config starts getting into secured secrets, service invocations, database lookups, operating system commands, and who else knows what. So not only is it really a touring complete problem, it veers into hellscape that is system integration.