5 ms·

I guess this students don't pass, do they? I don't think that's a particularly hard concern. It will take a bit more, but will learn the lesson (or drop out).

by samuel 1y ago

I guess this students don't pass, do they? I don't think that's a particularly hard concern. It will take a bit more, but will learn the lesson (or drop out). I'm more worried about those who will learn to solve the problems with the help of an LLM, but can't do anything without one. Those will go under the radar, unnoticed, and the problem is, how bad is it, actually? I would say that a lot, but then I realize I'm pretty useless driver without a GPS (once I get out of my hometown). That's the hard question, IMO.

9rx 1y ago
Back in my day they worried about kids not being able to solve problems without a calculator, because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket. ...But then.
- oerdier 1y ago
  Not being able to solve basic math problems in your mind (without a calculator) is still a problem. "Because you won't always have a calculator with you" just was the wrong argument. You'll acquire advanced knowledge and skills much, much faster (and sometimes only) if you have the base knowledge and skills readily available in your mind. If you're learning about linear algebra but you have to type in every simple multiplication of numbers into a calculator...
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > if you have the base knowledge and skills readily available in your mind. I have the base knowledge and skill readily available to perform basic arithmetic, but I still can't do it in my mind in any practical way because I, for lack of a better description, run out of memory. I expect most everyone eventually "runs out of memory" if the values are sufficiently large, but I hit the wall when the values are exceptionally small. And not for lack of trying – the "you won't always have a calculator" message was heard. It wasn't skill and knowledge that was the concern, though. It was very much about execution. We were tested on execution. > If you're learning about linear algebra but you have to type in every simple multiplication of numbers into a calculator... I can't imagine anyone is still using a four function calculator. Certainly not in an application like learning linear algebra. Modern calculators are decidedly designed for linear algebra. They need to be given the rise of things like machine learning that are heavily dependent on such.
Stubbs 1y ago
As someone already said, parents used to be concerned that kids wouldn't be able to solve maths problems without a calculator, and it's the same problem, but there's a difference between solving problems _with_ LLMs, and having LLMs solve it _for you_. I don't see the former as that much of a problem.
- 9rx 1y ago
  > there's a difference between solving problems _with_ LLMs, and having LLMs solve it _for you_. If there is a difference, then fundamentally LLMs cannot solve problems for you. They can only apply transformations using already known operators. No different than a calculator, except with exponentially more built-in functions. But I'm not sure that there is a difference. A problem is only a problem if you recognize it, and once you recognize a problem then anything else that is involved along the way towards finding a solution is merely helping you solve it. If a "problem" is solved for you, it was never a problem. So, for each statement to have any practical meaning, they must be interpreted with equivalency.
  - kevindamm 1y ago
    There is a difference between thinking about the context of a problem and "critical thinking" about the problem or its possible solutions. There is a measurable decrease in critical thinking skills when people consistently offload the thinking about a problem to an LLM. This is where the primary difference is between solving problems with an LLM vs having it solved for you with an LLM. And, that is cause for concern. Two studies on impact of LLMs and generative AI on critical thinking: https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6 https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6 https://slejournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40561-024-00316-7 https://slejournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40561-...
- shinycode 1y ago
  Well the extent is much broader from a calculator vs an LLM. Why should I hire you if an agent can do it ? LLM is every job is a calculator and can be replaced. Spotify CEO stated on X that before asking for more headcount they have to justify not being able to do the job with an agent. So all the students who let the LLM do their assignment and learn basically nothing, what’s their value for a company to be hired ? The company will and is just using the agent as well …
shinycode 1y ago
For your GPS at worst you follow directions road sign by road sign. For a job without the core knowledge what’s the goal of hiring one person vs an unqualified one doing just prompts or worse, hiring no one and let agents do the prompting ?
lr4444lr 1y ago
How many people are "good drivers" outside their home town? I am not that old, but old enough to remember all adults taking wrong turns trying to find new destinations for the first time.
- Suppafly 1y ago
  >How many people are "good drivers" outside their home town? My wife is surprisingly good at remembering routes, she'll use the GPS the first time, but generally remembers the route after that. She still isn't good at knowing which direction is east vs west or north/south, but neither am I.
  - dodslaser 1y ago
    I'm like that too, but I don't think it transfers particularly well to LLMs. The problem is that you can just skip straight to the answer and ignore the explanation (if it even produces one). It would be pretty neat if there was an LLM that guides you towards the right answer without giving it to you. Asking questions and possibly giving small hints along the way.
    - Suppafly 1y ago
      >It would be pretty neat if there was an LLM that guides you towards the right answer without giving it to you. Asking questions and possibly giving small hints along the way. I think you can prompt them to do that, but that doesn't solve the issue of people not being willing to learn vs just jump to the answer, unless they made a school approved one that forced it to do that.
xhkkffbf 1y ago
All tech becomes a crutch. People can't wash their clothes without a machine. People can't cook without a microwave. Tech is both a gift and a curse.

by samuel 1y ago

9rx 1y ago

Back in my day they worried about kids not being able to solve problems without a calculator, because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket. ...But then.

oerdier 1y ago
Not being able to solve basic math problems in your mind (without a calculator) is still a problem. "Because you won't always have a calculator with you" just was the wrong argument. You'll acquire advanced knowledge and skills much, much faster (and sometimes only) if you have the base knowledge and skills readily available in your mind. If you're learning about linear algebra but you have to type in every simple multiplication of numbers into a calculator...
- 9rx 1y ago
  > if you have the base knowledge and skills readily available in your mind. I have the base knowledge and skill readily available to perform basic arithmetic, but I still can't do it in my mind in any practical way because I, for lack of a better description, run out of memory. I expect most everyone eventually "runs out of memory" if the values are sufficiently large, but I hit the wall when the values are exceptionally small. And not for lack of trying – the "you won't always have a calculator" message was heard. It wasn't skill and knowledge that was the concern, though. It was very much about execution. We were tested on execution. > If you're learning about linear algebra but you have to type in every simple multiplication of numbers into a calculator... I can't imagine anyone is still using a four function calculator. Certainly not in an application like learning linear algebra. Modern calculators are decidedly designed for linear algebra. They need to be given the rise of things like machine learning that are heavily dependent on such.

Stubbs 1y ago

As someone already said, parents used to be concerned that kids wouldn't be able to solve maths problems without a calculator, and it's the same problem, but there's a difference between solving problems _with_ LLMs, and having LLMs solve it _for you_. I don't see the former as that much of a problem.

9rx 1y ago
> there's a difference between solving problems _with_ LLMs, and having LLMs solve it _for you_. If there is a difference, then fundamentally LLMs cannot solve problems for you. They can only apply transformations using already known operators. No different than a calculator, except with exponentially more built-in functions. But I'm not sure that there is a difference. A problem is only a problem if you recognize it, and once you recognize a problem then anything else that is involved along the way towards finding a solution is merely helping you solve it. If a "problem" is solved for you, it was never a problem. So, for each statement to have any practical meaning, they must be interpreted with equivalency.
- kevindamm 1y ago
  There is a difference between thinking about the context of a problem and "critical thinking" about the problem or its possible solutions. There is a measurable decrease in critical thinking skills when people consistently offload the thinking about a problem to an LLM. This is where the primary difference is between solving problems with an LLM vs having it solved for you with an LLM. And, that is cause for concern. Two studies on impact of LLMs and generative AI on critical thinking: https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6 https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6 https://slejournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40561-024-00316-7 https://slejournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40561-...
shinycode 1y ago
Well the extent is much broader from a calculator vs an LLM. Why should I hire you if an agent can do it ? LLM is every job is a calculator and can be replaced. Spotify CEO stated on X that before asking for more headcount they have to justify not being able to do the job with an agent. So all the students who let the LLM do their assignment and learn basically nothing, what’s their value for a company to be hired ? The company will and is just using the agent as well …

shinycode 1y ago

For your GPS at worst you follow directions road sign by road sign. For a job without the core knowledge what’s the goal of hiring one person vs an unqualified one doing just prompts or worse, hiring no one and let agents do the prompting ?

lr4444lr 1y ago

How many people are "good drivers" outside their home town? I am not that old, but old enough to remember all adults taking wrong turns trying to find new destinations for the first time.

Suppafly 1y ago
>How many people are "good drivers" outside their home town? My wife is surprisingly good at remembering routes, she'll use the GPS the first time, but generally remembers the route after that. She still isn't good at knowing which direction is east vs west or north/south, but neither am I.
- dodslaser 1y ago
  I'm like that too, but I don't think it transfers particularly well to LLMs. The problem is that you can just skip straight to the answer and ignore the explanation (if it even produces one). It would be pretty neat if there was an LLM that guides you towards the right answer without giving it to you. Asking questions and possibly giving small hints along the way.
  - Suppafly 1y ago
    >It would be pretty neat if there was an LLM that guides you towards the right answer without giving it to you. Asking questions and possibly giving small hints along the way. I think you can prompt them to do that, but that doesn't solve the issue of people not being willing to learn vs just jump to the answer, unless they made a school approved one that forced it to do that.

xhkkffbf 1y ago

All tech becomes a crutch. People can't wash their clothes without a machine. People can't cook without a microwave. Tech is both a gift and a curse.