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Is there a serious steelman argument for why it makes sense to reflexively call protests against Israel anti-Semitic? The Jews are a globally distributed (and s

Is there a serious steelman argument for why it makes sense to reflexively call protests against Israel anti-Semitic? The Jews are a globally distributed (and somewhat loosely defined) cultural group, whereas Israel is a specific concrete geopolitical entity. They are just completely categorically different things. Even if you have insane pro-terrorist views and want to wipe Israel off the map (which, to be clear, I don’t support), it’s not necessarily the case that your reason for holding those beliefs is antipathy to the Jewish culture, religion or ethnicity. Indeed that might be why you hold those beliefs, but as far as I can tell it’s not logically required.

mmoustafa 2y ago
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thakoppno 2y ago
Can you identify a person that best exemplifies this steelman argument?
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  I was asking if there is one, not asserting that there is. I don’t understand your question.
  - ars 2y ago
    Flying Hamas flags, saying "From the river to the sea", and calling for intifada are all antisemitic, not anti-Israel. Being anti-Zionist - but only to the Jews in Israel, and not the Arabs, is also antisemitic (and racist).
    - KingMob 2y ago
      You know the Israeli government has also used the phrase "From the river to the sea", right? "Intifada" just means "uprising"; the original Palestinian intifadas referred to nonviolent work stoppages, protests, etc. The attempt to imply it means something grosser is your ignorance and/or racism. > Being anti-Zionist - but only to the Jews in Israel, and not the Arabs This thought is incoherent. It's like saying Blacks protesting America are also protesting Black Americans.
    - tkel 2y ago
      "From the river to the sea" was an ISRAELI SLOGAN, by the Likud party since 1977, the party currently in power, that was then re-appropriated by Palestinians. Like many slurs have been throughout history. It's a palestinian response that in essence says "no, you're not going to wipe us all out, we will be free." Also it's very hypocritical, gaslighting, and manipulative to pearl-clutch about "from the river to sea" as Netanyahu (of Likud) and Trump openly plot to displace all Palestinians "from the river to the sea". It's one thing to say it, it's another to do it, as the Israelis are. It shouldn't be surprising though. Likud has openly been saying for the last 50 years this was their plan. Likud still does speeches with images of "Greater Israel" on the lectern. The pearl-clutching and gaslighting is just to paralyze and distract while they execute their land grab and invade the neighboring countries.
itake 2y ago
> pressure Columbia over its handling of anti-Israel protests and other allegations of antisemitism at the university I don't think the article is saying anti-Israel is antisemitism. My reading is there are antisemitic behaviors within the anti-Israel protestors.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  Like what?
  - itake 2y ago
    The article doesn't say. but if you google, you can find articles like this: > Citing “serious and pervasive” problems uncovered through nearly 500 student testimonials, the faculty task force recommended revamped anti-bias training for students and staff and a revised system for reporting complaints about antisemitism. > Jewish students felt pushed out of many clubs and organizations https://apnews.com/article/campus-protests-israel-palestine-columbia-f2984f21aa38a4f637982af7b98fed5e https://apnews.com/article/campus-protests-israel-palestine-...
deleted 2y ago
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jfengel 2y ago
Israel's direct enemies make it very explicit that they are antisemitic. Consider Hamas' charter, for example. Those enemies have long used European allies that descend from a long line of antisemitism, from both left and right wings. They often use "Israel" as a cover for their anti-Jewish beliefs. Several United Nations agencies seem to exist for the sole purpose of condemning Israel, while ignoring much worse issues elsewhere -- and that's not because Israel is uniquely bad. Israel's right wing government has taken advantage of this. So much anti-Israel sentiment is antisemitic that they can lump in all of the many, many valid criticisms. They believe, with some justification, that they will never receive fair treatment so they might as well do what they are accused of. I don't wish to "both sides" this. I'm just explaining that Jews have experienced so much bad faith argument that even Jews who are disgusted by the Israeli government expect outside criticism to come from a similar malfeasance. Maybe you specifically want to have a good faith discussion, but statistically the odds aren't great. So the arguments get shut down by the most expedient means, not the most correct ones.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  I buy the claim that Hamas is an antisemitic organization. Their 1988 charter is quite explicitly antisemitic and although their more recent charter attempts to walk that back, it’s not clear how much sway the members who wrote it actually have within the organization or whether it was just written for Western consumption. I already said that antisemitism is one reason one might not support Israel, so of course I don’t dispute that some anti-Israel organizations are indeed antisemitic. But we’re not talking about Hamas; we’re talking about Colombia students. Is there any evidence that they openly supported Hamas? If not, why is it relevant?
  - settrans 2y ago
    The Columbia protests were plainly and unabashedly pro-Hamas, e.g. the chant "يا حماس يا حبيب اضرب اضرب تل ابيب" (Oh Hamas, oh beloved, strike strike Tel Aviv), or the protestors exclaiming "We are Hamas", or any of the other explicit pro-Hamas statements that have been caught on camera. But I'm not sure what other pro-Palestinian protests have occurred since 2023 other than pro-Hamas protests. Have there been any explicitly pro-Palestinian protests that have advocated against Hamas, or for any other political entity?
hayst4ck 2y ago
Calling someone anti-Semitic is exactly the same thing as calling someone Russophobic, Sinophobic, or saying they have Trump Derangement Syndrome. It's a rhetorical weapon to call people who are critical or people who have been harmed irrational. It switches the roles of abuser and victim by accusing the victim of irrational hatred towards their abuser. The only reason that word isn't experienced the same as the other words that express an identical idea is because of the horrific history of violence against Jewish people carried out by Nazi Germany, legitimizing the word. Times have changed and Israeli's find themselves in the position of power rather than on the receiving end of it, so they consume the legitimization of the word while abusing it in the same way all other authoritarian regimes abuse language. Worse, actual anti-semites are able to abuse the word to harm jewish people, their history, and damage the word/idea itself. Here is a more eloquent explanation of the whole thing by Timothy Snyder: https://snyder.substack.com/p/antisemitism-and-antisemitism https://snyder.substack.com/p/antisemitism-and-antisemitism
- deleted 2y ago
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- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  Sorry, you think there's no longer appropriate and legitimate situations in which to call someone antisemitic? What does Israel's relative position of power have to do with how Jews are treated in other countries? For that mater, I wouldn't necessarily use the word Sinophobic, but you don't think Asian-Americans being assaulted and harassed over the "Kung-flu" have a reasonable complaint or claim that their abuser was motivated by anti-Chinese sentiment?
settrans 2y ago
Well, it depends on why you're protesting against Israel. If you're supporting the dismantlement of the only Jewish state, like Hamas is, then you are in a precarious situation: why do you argue uniquely against Jewish self-determination? Do you routinely protest in support of tear down all nations without prejudice, or just focus your antinationalism on the one liberal, democratic Jewish state? If so, why do you feel that only the Jews lack the right to defend themselves as a nation? Is it because you prefer to see the Jews defenseless against harassment and attempts at their genocide?
- kevingadd 2y ago
  There are many possible criticisms of Israel that don't have anything to do with Jewish self-determination, though... or is the idea that because it's the only Jewish state they get a free pass on all their conduct? I'm not following the logic.
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    There is no free pass only a viewing through the very real lense that “the Jews” has been replaced with “Israel” or “the Israeli lobby,” by racist groups.
  - deleted 2y ago
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  - settrans 2y ago
    There are many legitimate possible criticisms of the state of Israel, and protesting around those criticisms is a frequent occurrence within Israel. But how many protests have you seen outside of Israel that were debating a narrow Israel domestic policy issue, versus calling into question the legitimacy of the "Zionist entity"?
- KingMob 2y ago
  Pretty sure when the Crusaders showed up in the middle ages, the locals protested against Christians too. Everything you've typed is an attempt to deflect criticism of Israel by exploiting Jewish sentiment, and it's frankly gross.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
There are approximately 16 million Jews worldwide, with over 7 million in Israel and 6 million in the United States. Outside of these two countries Jewish populations are relatively small and often lack significant cultural or political presence. Talking about Israel is talking about over half of the worlds Jews. Israel is the only country explicitly with a Jewish ethos in a way similar to how European nations reflect Christian traditions or Middle Eastern countries reflect Islamic ones. Its population includes large numbers of Jews who were expelled from both European and Middle Eastern countries. While criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic much of the antisemitic rhetoric of the past has shifted toward targeting the state of Israel instead of Jews as individuals (once the Jews were expelled/driven from those nations and no longer a convenient target). Israel is often held to higher political and moral standards than other nations under the guise of justified by its classification as a Western democracy. For many this uneven scrutiny mirrors historical patterns of discrimination, now aimed at the Jewish state instead of (often no longer existing/relevant) local Jewish populations. In some circles, classic antisemitic tropes have simply been reframed: accusations once directed at “the Jews” have been redirected toward “Israel” or “the Israeli lobby,” invoking ideas of secret influence or global manipulation that echo longstanding racist narratives. Source: I'm not jewish but in any racist feeling conversation I invoke that I am in order to challenge fascists and more often than not invoking that surfaces that the conversation does in fact have anti-jewish sentiment. What I find especially uncomfortable is how little historical context or nuance is expected when discussing Israel, compared to nearly any other nation or group. Conversations that would normally require sensitivity, acknowledgment of trauma, and awareness of systemic patterns suddenly become blunt and ahistorical when they involve Israel. The level of deference people extend to other populations in terms of lived experience, historical persecution, and collective memory often disappears entirely in this context.
- bjornsing 2y ago
  > Israel is often held to higher political and moral standards than other nations under the guise of justified by its classification as a Western democracy. If you really think it’s just a “guise” then I can understand your point of view. But it’s very hard for me to agree with that assessment. Israel is treated entirely differently than say Islamic countries in the West. We would never accept the blatant disrespect for international law that they display if they were an Islamic nation, and just keep sending them weapons. So I’d say the source of the tension is that Israel isn’t really a Western democracy, but it enjoys the privileges of being one.
ccppurcell 2y ago
Criticising the government of Israel is not even anti-Israeli, let along antisemitic, any more than criticising the US government is anti-American.
- ars 2y ago
  And no one is complaining about people who restrict themselves to that. The issue is those people who want to completely dismantle the state of Israel and evict (or kill) all the Jewish inhabitants. They call themselves "anti-Zionists", but they are simply racists because they are fine with the Arab citizens of Israel.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    > The issue is those people who want to completely dismantle the state of Israel and evict (or kill) all the Jewish inhabitants. This is equally as wrong as those Israelis who want to wipe Gaza off the map and occupy the entire West Bank. Sadly for the Palestinians, a bunch of people who believe this are part of the Israeli government.
  - SauciestGNU 2y ago
    A state which commits genocide forfeits its right to exist. A secular pluralistic state can exist in the place where the ethnonationalist Israel currently exists. But its formation and continued security must not be contingent on the genocide of a people.
    - settrans 2y ago
      Great, so we're in agreement: Gaza has forfeited its right to statehood after committing the October 7th massacre, literally aimed at destroying Israel. Quoting the Hamas spokesman Ghazi Hamad: "Hamas is prepared to repeat the October 7 Al-Aqsa Flood Operation time and again until Israel is annihilated." https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-...
anon84873628 2y ago
There is no serious argument or logical explanation to your question. What you said is obviously true. But of course, Trump and his people don't care about truth, logic, hypocrisy, morality, justice, decency, or anything else. They support Israel and are thrilled to see Palestinians killed. They also hate "the left", people in universities, and anyone who disagrees with them. So, they will use any rhetorical tactic no matter how brazen or outrageous to discredit the protestors and create the narrative they want. It is about fabricating their own reality. In this specific case I imagine they also find some amusement in "using the the language and tactics of the left against them." I.e. pretend to be fighting against bigotry.
xboxnolifes 2y ago
There is no argument. It's a distraction to both make people spend time thinking about it, and discredit the protestors' opinions.
sgustard 2y ago
From a US State Dept study that I'm sure everyone is surprised is still up: "recent studies have shown that a better predictor of antisemitism is not a right or left-wing perspective but a conspiratorial worldview and a penchant for authoritarian type of government" I struggle to put my finger on who that reminds me of. https://2021-2025.state.gov/from-right-to-left-and-in-between-jew-hatred-across-the-political-divide/ https://2021-2025.state.gov/from-right-to-left-and-in-betwee...
bjornsing 2y ago
> Is there a serious steelman argument for why it makes sense to reflexively call protests against Israel anti-Semitic? Probably not. I grew up with extreme left-wing parents deeply involved with the Palestinian cause (but don’t sympathize with their views myself). I’ve heard them and their friends express a vicarial, seemingly irrational distaste for the US and Israel infinitely many times. I’ve also heard a lot of terror romanticism, not just for Palestinian terrorists but also the IRA, etc. But I’ve never heard anyone express any animosity towards Jews as an ethnic or religious group. I think I can understand where the misunderstanding comes from though: These are very ideological people with deep seated feelings (hate mostly) connected to those ideological views. Most people don’t think or feel that way, and the closest thing they can relate to is racial hatred. So that’s the inference they make. In Swedish there’s a saying that roughly translates to “as you understand yourself you understand others”. I think that’s mostly what we’re seeing here.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  > These are very ideological people with deep seated feelings (hate mostly) connected to those ideological views. Most people don’t think or feel that way, and the closest thing they can relate to is racial hatred. This is a very interesting point.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Not sure how your personal experience in Sweden with your parents applies other than that the label doesn't apply to your parents. My mom was very pro-Palestinian. She came to it from midwestern U.S. Irish/German Catholic doctrine. It very much had an anti-semitic component in that context. And it became apparent to her when I called out some of the attitudes/things people were saying as a kid. It's part of what caused me to adopt a default 'I'm going to challenge the popular narrative' position even though I'm not jewish, because even my mom unintentionally had accepted it and incorporated it into herself.
  - bjornsing 2y ago
    Can’t speak for your mother of course, but I was talking about more people than my parents. A lot more.
r00fus 2y ago
There is rationality if you think like an autocrat - the goal is to crush dissent and any avenues of dissent so that people "self-censor" in fear. Combine with upcoming extra-judicial detentions of citizens (we are already detaining legal immigrants in El Salvador), it's required to create a culture of fear and submission. That it happens to be against a specific group of people is irrelevant - this is the tip of the spear.

mmoustafa 2y ago

[flagged]

thakoppno 2y ago

Can you identify a person that best exemplifies this steelman argument?

School-Cotton 2y ago
I was asking if there is one, not asserting that there is. I don’t understand your question.
- ars 2y ago
  Flying Hamas flags, saying "From the river to the sea", and calling for intifada are all antisemitic, not anti-Israel. Being anti-Zionist - but only to the Jews in Israel, and not the Arabs, is also antisemitic (and racist).
  - KingMob 2y ago
    You know the Israeli government has also used the phrase "From the river to the sea", right? "Intifada" just means "uprising"; the original Palestinian intifadas referred to nonviolent work stoppages, protests, etc. The attempt to imply it means something grosser is your ignorance and/or racism. > Being anti-Zionist - but only to the Jews in Israel, and not the Arabs This thought is incoherent. It's like saying Blacks protesting America are also protesting Black Americans.
  - tkel 2y ago
    "From the river to the sea" was an ISRAELI SLOGAN, by the Likud party since 1977, the party currently in power, that was then re-appropriated by Palestinians. Like many slurs have been throughout history. It's a palestinian response that in essence says "no, you're not going to wipe us all out, we will be free." Also it's very hypocritical, gaslighting, and manipulative to pearl-clutch about "from the river to sea" as Netanyahu (of Likud) and Trump openly plot to displace all Palestinians "from the river to the sea". It's one thing to say it, it's another to do it, as the Israelis are. It shouldn't be surprising though. Likud has openly been saying for the last 50 years this was their plan. Likud still does speeches with images of "Greater Israel" on the lectern. The pearl-clutching and gaslighting is just to paralyze and distract while they execute their land grab and invade the neighboring countries.

itake 2y ago

> pressure Columbia over its handling of anti-Israel protests and other allegations of antisemitism at the university I don't think the article is saying anti-Israel is antisemitism. My reading is there are antisemitic behaviors within the anti-Israel protestors.

School-Cotton 2y ago
Like what?
- itake 2y ago
  The article doesn't say. but if you google, you can find articles like this: > Citing “serious and pervasive” problems uncovered through nearly 500 student testimonials, the faculty task force recommended revamped anti-bias training for students and staff and a revised system for reporting complaints about antisemitism. > Jewish students felt pushed out of many clubs and organizations https://apnews.com/article/campus-protests-israel-palestine-columbia-f2984f21aa38a4f637982af7b98fed5e https://apnews.com/article/campus-protests-israel-palestine-...

deleted 2y ago

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jfengel 2y ago

Israel's direct enemies make it very explicit that they are antisemitic. Consider Hamas' charter, for example. Those enemies have long used European allies that descend from a long line of antisemitism, from both left and right wings. They often use "Israel" as a cover for their anti-Jewish beliefs. Several United Nations agencies seem to exist for the sole purpose of condemning Israel, while ignoring much worse issues elsewhere -- and that's not because Israel is uniquely bad. Israel's right wing government has taken advantage of this. So much anti-Israel sentiment is antisemitic that they can lump in all of the many, many valid criticisms. They believe, with some justification, that they will never receive fair treatment so they might as well do what they are accused of. I don't wish to "both sides" this. I'm just explaining that Jews have experienced so much bad faith argument that even Jews who are disgusted by the Israeli government expect outside criticism to come from a similar malfeasance. Maybe you specifically want to have a good faith discussion, but statistically the odds aren't great. So the arguments get shut down by the most expedient means, not the most correct ones.

School-Cotton 2y ago
I buy the claim that Hamas is an antisemitic organization. Their 1988 charter is quite explicitly antisemitic and although their more recent charter attempts to walk that back, it’s not clear how much sway the members who wrote it actually have within the organization or whether it was just written for Western consumption. I already said that antisemitism is one reason one might not support Israel, so of course I don’t dispute that some anti-Israel organizations are indeed antisemitic. But we’re not talking about Hamas; we’re talking about Colombia students. Is there any evidence that they openly supported Hamas? If not, why is it relevant?
- settrans 2y ago
  The Columbia protests were plainly and unabashedly pro-Hamas, e.g. the chant "يا حماس يا حبيب اضرب اضرب تل ابيب" (Oh Hamas, oh beloved, strike strike Tel Aviv), or the protestors exclaiming "We are Hamas", or any of the other explicit pro-Hamas statements that have been caught on camera. But I'm not sure what other pro-Palestinian protests have occurred since 2023 other than pro-Hamas protests. Have there been any explicitly pro-Palestinian protests that have advocated against Hamas, or for any other political entity?

hayst4ck 2y ago

Calling someone anti-Semitic is exactly the same thing as calling someone Russophobic, Sinophobic, or saying they have Trump Derangement Syndrome. It's a rhetorical weapon to call people who are critical or people who have been harmed irrational. It switches the roles of abuser and victim by accusing the victim of irrational hatred towards their abuser. The only reason that word isn't experienced the same as the other words that express an identical idea is because of the horrific history of violence against Jewish people carried out by Nazi Germany, legitimizing the word. Times have changed and Israeli's find themselves in the position of power rather than on the receiving end of it, so they consume the legitimization of the word while abusing it in the same way all other authoritarian regimes abuse language. Worse, actual anti-semites are able to abuse the word to harm jewish people, their history, and damage the word/idea itself. Here is a more eloquent explanation of the whole thing by Timothy Snyder: https://snyder.substack.com/p/antisemitism-and-antisemitism https://snyder.substack.com/p/antisemitism-and-antisemitism

deleted 2y ago
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BobaFloutist 2y ago
Sorry, you think there's no longer appropriate and legitimate situations in which to call someone antisemitic? What does Israel's relative position of power have to do with how Jews are treated in other countries? For that mater, I wouldn't necessarily use the word Sinophobic, but you don't think Asian-Americans being assaulted and harassed over the "Kung-flu" have a reasonable complaint or claim that their abuser was motivated by anti-Chinese sentiment?

settrans 2y ago

Well, it depends on why you're protesting against Israel. If you're supporting the dismantlement of the only Jewish state, like Hamas is, then you are in a precarious situation: why do you argue uniquely against Jewish self-determination? Do you routinely protest in support of tear down all nations without prejudice, or just focus your antinationalism on the one liberal, democratic Jewish state? If so, why do you feel that only the Jews lack the right to defend themselves as a nation? Is it because you prefer to see the Jews defenseless against harassment and attempts at their genocide?

kevingadd 2y ago
There are many possible criticisms of Israel that don't have anything to do with Jewish self-determination, though... or is the idea that because it's the only Jewish state they get a free pass on all their conduct? I'm not following the logic.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  There is no free pass only a viewing through the very real lense that “the Jews” has been replaced with “Israel” or “the Israeli lobby,” by racist groups.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- settrans 2y ago
  There are many legitimate possible criticisms of the state of Israel, and protesting around those criticisms is a frequent occurrence within Israel. But how many protests have you seen outside of Israel that were debating a narrow Israel domestic policy issue, versus calling into question the legitimacy of the "Zionist entity"?
KingMob 2y ago
Pretty sure when the Crusaders showed up in the middle ages, the locals protested against Christians too. Everything you've typed is an attempt to deflect criticism of Israel by exploiting Jewish sentiment, and it's frankly gross.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

There are approximately 16 million Jews worldwide, with over 7 million in Israel and 6 million in the United States. Outside of these two countries Jewish populations are relatively small and often lack significant cultural or political presence. Talking about Israel is talking about over half of the worlds Jews. Israel is the only country explicitly with a Jewish ethos in a way similar to how European nations reflect Christian traditions or Middle Eastern countries reflect Islamic ones. Its population includes large numbers of Jews who were expelled from both European and Middle Eastern countries. While criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic much of the antisemitic rhetoric of the past has shifted toward targeting the state of Israel instead of Jews as individuals (once the Jews were expelled/driven from those nations and no longer a convenient target). Israel is often held to higher political and moral standards than other nations under the guise of justified by its classification as a Western democracy. For many this uneven scrutiny mirrors historical patterns of discrimination, now aimed at the Jewish state instead of (often no longer existing/relevant) local Jewish populations. In some circles, classic antisemitic tropes have simply been reframed: accusations once directed at “the Jews” have been redirected toward “Israel” or “the Israeli lobby,” invoking ideas of secret influence or global manipulation that echo longstanding racist narratives. Source: I'm not jewish but in any racist feeling conversation I invoke that I am in order to challenge fascists and more often than not invoking that surfaces that the conversation does in fact have anti-jewish sentiment. What I find especially uncomfortable is how little historical context or nuance is expected when discussing Israel, compared to nearly any other nation or group. Conversations that would normally require sensitivity, acknowledgment of trauma, and awareness of systemic patterns suddenly become blunt and ahistorical when they involve Israel. The level of deference people extend to other populations in terms of lived experience, historical persecution, and collective memory often disappears entirely in this context.

bjornsing 2y ago
> Israel is often held to higher political and moral standards than other nations under the guise of justified by its classification as a Western democracy. If you really think it’s just a “guise” then I can understand your point of view. But it’s very hard for me to agree with that assessment. Israel is treated entirely differently than say Islamic countries in the West. We would never accept the blatant disrespect for international law that they display if they were an Islamic nation, and just keep sending them weapons. So I’d say the source of the tension is that Israel isn’t really a Western democracy, but it enjoys the privileges of being one.

ccppurcell 2y ago

Criticising the government of Israel is not even anti-Israeli, let along antisemitic, any more than criticising the US government is anti-American.

ars 2y ago
And no one is complaining about people who restrict themselves to that. The issue is those people who want to completely dismantle the state of Israel and evict (or kill) all the Jewish inhabitants. They call themselves "anti-Zionists", but they are simply racists because they are fine with the Arab citizens of Israel.
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  > The issue is those people who want to completely dismantle the state of Israel and evict (or kill) all the Jewish inhabitants. This is equally as wrong as those Israelis who want to wipe Gaza off the map and occupy the entire West Bank. Sadly for the Palestinians, a bunch of people who believe this are part of the Israeli government.
- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  A state which commits genocide forfeits its right to exist. A secular pluralistic state can exist in the place where the ethnonationalist Israel currently exists. But its formation and continued security must not be contingent on the genocide of a people.
  - settrans 2y ago
    Great, so we're in agreement: Gaza has forfeited its right to statehood after committing the October 7th massacre, literally aimed at destroying Israel. Quoting the Hamas spokesman Ghazi Hamad: "Hamas is prepared to repeat the October 7 Al-Aqsa Flood Operation time and again until Israel is annihilated." https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-...

anon84873628 2y ago

There is no serious argument or logical explanation to your question. What you said is obviously true. But of course, Trump and his people don't care about truth, logic, hypocrisy, morality, justice, decency, or anything else. They support Israel and are thrilled to see Palestinians killed. They also hate "the left", people in universities, and anyone who disagrees with them. So, they will use any rhetorical tactic no matter how brazen or outrageous to discredit the protestors and create the narrative they want. It is about fabricating their own reality. In this specific case I imagine they also find some amusement in "using the the language and tactics of the left against them." I.e. pretend to be fighting against bigotry.

xboxnolifes 2y ago

There is no argument. It's a distraction to both make people spend time thinking about it, and discredit the protestors' opinions.

sgustard 2y ago

From a US State Dept study that I'm sure everyone is surprised is still up: "recent studies have shown that a better predictor of antisemitism is not a right or left-wing perspective but a conspiratorial worldview and a penchant for authoritarian type of government" I struggle to put my finger on who that reminds me of. https://2021-2025.state.gov/from-right-to-left-and-in-between-jew-hatred-across-the-political-divide/ https://2021-2025.state.gov/from-right-to-left-and-in-betwee...

bjornsing 2y ago

> Is there a serious steelman argument for why it makes sense to reflexively call protests against Israel anti-Semitic? Probably not. I grew up with extreme left-wing parents deeply involved with the Palestinian cause (but don’t sympathize with their views myself). I’ve heard them and their friends express a vicarial, seemingly irrational distaste for the US and Israel infinitely many times. I’ve also heard a lot of terror romanticism, not just for Palestinian terrorists but also the IRA, etc. But I’ve never heard anyone express any animosity towards Jews as an ethnic or religious group. I think I can understand where the misunderstanding comes from though: These are very ideological people with deep seated feelings (hate mostly) connected to those ideological views. Most people don’t think or feel that way, and the closest thing they can relate to is racial hatred. So that’s the inference they make. In Swedish there’s a saying that roughly translates to “as you understand yourself you understand others”. I think that’s mostly what we’re seeing here.

School-Cotton 2y ago
> These are very ideological people with deep seated feelings (hate mostly) connected to those ideological views. Most people don’t think or feel that way, and the closest thing they can relate to is racial hatred. This is a very interesting point.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Not sure how your personal experience in Sweden with your parents applies other than that the label doesn't apply to your parents. My mom was very pro-Palestinian. She came to it from midwestern U.S. Irish/German Catholic doctrine. It very much had an anti-semitic component in that context. And it became apparent to her when I called out some of the attitudes/things people were saying as a kid. It's part of what caused me to adopt a default 'I'm going to challenge the popular narrative' position even though I'm not jewish, because even my mom unintentionally had accepted it and incorporated it into herself.
- bjornsing 2y ago
  Can’t speak for your mother of course, but I was talking about more people than my parents. A lot more.

r00fus 2y ago

There is rationality if you think like an autocrat - the goal is to crush dissent and any avenues of dissent so that people "self-censor" in fear. Combine with upcoming extra-judicial detentions of citizens (we are already detaining legal immigrants in El Salvador), it's required to create a culture of fear and submission. That it happens to be against a specific group of people is irrelevant - this is the tip of the spear.