3 ms·

I’m pretty excited for this to be added to ereaders, which notoriously (among people who care about this kind of thing) have terrible layout engines.

numbers 2y ago
yeah, I agree, sometimes reading an ebook feels very off b/c of the lines just looking way too justified
MBCook 2y ago
Note that it’s up to the browser to do whatever it thinks is best. They didn’t lay down specific rules. So unless the e-reader uses an engine that already has good rules there will be no real change unless the manufacturer does what it should have already.
spookie 2y ago
Sometimes I like to think Knuth may have intrusive violent thoughts about how shit programmers make text look.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
TiredOfLife 2y ago
Currently on Android i use Moon+ reader that has hyphenation + hanging punctuation. Before that (2008-2013) I used eInk reader that came with CoolReader (its layout engine "crengine" is the base for KOReader) that also had good hyphenation and hanging punctuation and nice footnotes. So in my experience ereaders have had great layout engines.
Finnucane 2y ago
Given the way ebook software is developed, it'll be years before this makes it to a device near you.
- archagon 2y ago
  I dunno, I imagine Apple Books would be eager to implement this as soon as possible.
velcrovan 2y ago
Better ways of laying out digital text have existed since before ereaders existed. Even this one CSS directive has already been supported by Chrome for two years. What's missing is Amazon & co. giving a shit about it. That needle shows no signs of moving.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  I was about to ask about that, how are / were traditional paper books lined out to prevent this? Surely not by hand. Proprietary software maybe?
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    Well, before desktop publishing, by phototypesetting [1], before that by hot-metal typesetting [2], before that, by hand. Nowadays, with software like Adobe InDesign, of if you happen to be a CS/math/physics nerd, with LaTeX, which has a famously high-quality layouting engine that utilizes the Knuth–Plass line-breaking algorithm [3]. Indeed it's fairly well known that Donald Knuth created TeX because he wasn't happy with the phototypeset proofs he received in 1977 for the second edition of The Art of Computer Programming, finding them inferior compared to the hot-metal typeset first edition. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phototypesetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phototypesetting [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_metal_typesetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_metal_typesetting [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Plass_line-breaking_algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Plass_line-break...
  - aardvark179 2y ago
    Books were produced before computers, and with very good typesetting. One difference between websites and books is that theee is a feedback loop with books where somebody ia at looking at the layout and either adjusting the spacing subtly, or even editing the text to avoid problems. Sometimes this is just to ensure that left justified text isn’t too ragged on the right edge, sometimes it’s to avoid river of space rubbing through a paragraph, and sometimes it’s editing or typesetting to avoid orphans. But text on a page is set for a set layout, and that’s where the web really differs.
  - 2y ago
taeric 2y ago
Is this where folks will get it for ereaders? Naively, I hadn't realized ereaders were glorified webkit displays.
- mintplant 2y ago
  EPUB is HTML. https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/ https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/
  - taeric 2y ago
    I knew it was related, but I had assumed it did not rely on CSS. Again, I noted it was a naive view. Granted, I probably view CSS with far more disdain than I should.
    - NetOpWibby 2y ago
      CSS is your friend
      - taeric 2y ago
        The cascading aspect is mostly a big L. As is the dream of user style sheets. All the more so from the obfuscated style names so many tools saddle us with. Don't get me wrong, there are smart people working on css. That we decided, as an industry, to treat layout as a Rube Goldberg machination of interacting rules on a growing number of elements is not something you can easily overcome.

numbers 2y ago

yeah, I agree, sometimes reading an ebook feels very off b/c of the lines just looking way too justified

MBCook 2y ago

Note that it’s up to the browser to do whatever it thinks is best. They didn’t lay down specific rules. So unless the e-reader uses an engine that already has good rules there will be no real change unless the manufacturer does what it should have already.

spookie 2y ago

Sometimes I like to think Knuth may have intrusive violent thoughts about how shit programmers make text look.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

TiredOfLife 2y ago

Currently on Android i use Moon+ reader that has hyphenation + hanging punctuation. Before that (2008-2013) I used eInk reader that came with CoolReader (its layout engine "crengine" is the base for KOReader) that also had good hyphenation and hanging punctuation and nice footnotes. So in my experience ereaders have had great layout engines.

Finnucane 2y ago

Given the way ebook software is developed, it'll be years before this makes it to a device near you.

archagon 2y ago
I dunno, I imagine Apple Books would be eager to implement this as soon as possible.

velcrovan 2y ago

Better ways of laying out digital text have existed since before ereaders existed. Even this one CSS directive has already been supported by Chrome for two years. What's missing is Amazon & co. giving a shit about it. That needle shows no signs of moving.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I was about to ask about that, how are / were traditional paper books lined out to prevent this? Surely not by hand. Proprietary software maybe?
- Sharlin 2y ago
  Well, before desktop publishing, by phototypesetting [1], before that by hot-metal typesetting [2], before that, by hand. Nowadays, with software like Adobe InDesign, of if you happen to be a CS/math/physics nerd, with LaTeX, which has a famously high-quality layouting engine that utilizes the Knuth–Plass line-breaking algorithm [3]. Indeed it's fairly well known that Donald Knuth created TeX because he wasn't happy with the phototypeset proofs he received in 1977 for the second edition of The Art of Computer Programming, finding them inferior compared to the hot-metal typeset first edition. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phototypesetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phototypesetting [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_metal_typesetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_metal_typesetting [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Plass_line-breaking_algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Plass_line-break...
- aardvark179 2y ago
  Books were produced before computers, and with very good typesetting. One difference between websites and books is that theee is a feedback loop with books where somebody ia at looking at the layout and either adjusting the spacing subtly, or even editing the text to avoid problems. Sometimes this is just to ensure that left justified text isn’t too ragged on the right edge, sometimes it’s to avoid river of space rubbing through a paragraph, and sometimes it’s editing or typesetting to avoid orphans. But text on a page is set for a set layout, and that’s where the web really differs.
- 2y ago

taeric 2y ago

Is this where folks will get it for ereaders? Naively, I hadn't realized ereaders were glorified webkit displays.

mintplant 2y ago
EPUB is HTML. https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/ https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/
- taeric 2y ago
  I knew it was related, but I had assumed it did not rely on CSS. Again, I noted it was a naive view. Granted, I probably view CSS with far more disdain than I should.
  - NetOpWibby 2y ago
    CSS is your friend
    - taeric 2y ago
      The cascading aspect is mostly a big L. As is the dream of user style sheets. All the more so from the obfuscated style names so many tools saddle us with. Don't get me wrong, there are smart people working on css. That we decided, as an industry, to treat layout as a Rube Goldberg machination of interacting rules on a growing number of elements is not something you can easily overcome.