5 ms·

How Trump's second term just made digital sovereignty a European priority

106 points by doener 2y ago

mycall 2y ago
I hope the EU comes out stronger and united over all of these hyperpolicy changes.
hulitu 2y ago
> How can we keep control of our own data when U.S. laws reach far beyond American borders? One can start by not taking drugs. Then, after some days, one can type "snowden" in a search engine and press Enter. /s
- Aldipower 2y ago
  I've followed your advice, stopped taking drugs, typing in "snowden", pressed enter. Woah! I better take drugs again!
graemep 2y ago
I think digital sovereignty is a great idea, but no European country has been seriously committed to it. A few examples. * In the UK the NHS and a number of other government services use AWS heavily. * A lot of businesses all over the world use AWS, Cloudflare, Google Drive and other "cloud" and similar services. Some of these are quite hard to move off. This includes critical businesses such as banks. * I believe most Windows users now really on MS accounts to login to their PCs * The vast majority of mobile devices rely on Google or Apple for updates and software installation, as do almost all desktops (a few Linux and BSD users aside). * American companies dominate payment systems. Any one of these gives US companies a huge amount of control. The most effort to put alternatives in place have been made by countries that are hostile to the US - such as Russia and China - not an attractive alternative. Governments moving to sovereign services is not enough - if the US can cripple your private sector you are finished anyway. There is no easy, quick or cheap solution.
- Aldipower 2y ago
  I can say the same for Deutsche Bahn and Deutsche Post. Not everything, but quite some things are running on AWS there. Hard to believe, but reality.
- high_na_euv 2y ago
  >American companies dominate payment systems. Well, not really For example in Poland you have Blik which is really robust
  - poincaredisk 2y ago
    In Poland you have Blik which is really robust... ... and yet American companies dominate payment systems in Europe. And in Poland too. Having a choice doesn't mean that the leading option is not dominating the other ones.
- JimBlackwood 2y ago
  > * American companies dominate payment systems. Which ones? I can't name a single American one that "dominates". Maybe that's just my perspective but the American payment systems feel decades behind. At least in the NL we have iDeal and through EPI (European Payments Initiative) it should become the standard in the EU https://ideal.nl/en/epi-successfully-completes-acquisition-of-ideal-and-payconiq-international https://ideal.nl/en/epi-successfully-completes-acquisition-o... Then there's Klarna as well, which I think is pretty big in the EU.
  - tacker2000 2y ago
    Paypal is very strong in the german speaking regions.
  - wiether 2y ago
    Visa/Mastercard to begin with And now you have Apple & Google Pay for people using their smartphone You add PayPal to that and... you cover the companies that are the most widespread overall in Europe Each country has its own set of local systems, but, overall, the most commons are americans
incomingpain 2y ago
EU absolutely should do so. It's crazy that you dont run your own and then redundantly run on USA side. russia/china are rushing to stand up their own as well. Each sphere of influence will need to operate their own.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  I feel that the European understanding has largely been that the US and Europe share a "sphere of influence." We thought we were on the same side, the side of democracy, freedom, and free trade. Obviously, there were always disagreements, but they were mostly limited to local decisions. Europe might have stronger regulations, for example, but that, by and large, did not impact the US directly; it only impacted how US companies were allowed to behave in the European market. So I don't think anyone saw a huge problem with importing a lot of digital services from the US, particularly since this leveled out some of the US trade deficit. We shipped goods to the US, and the US sold digital services to us. Nobody expected a US president who effectively behaves in the way you would expect a Russian asset to behave. In hindsight, this was wrong, but I don't think it was obvious that one could or should predict this during Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, or even Trump's first term.
  - incomingpain 2y ago
    >I feel that the European understanding has largely been that the US and Europe share a "sphere of influence." We thought we were on the same side, the side of democracy, freedom, and free trade. From my pov the EU left those things behind. France is a recent example where they banned the front runner marine le pen from running. This is after a suspicious move to remove democratic options in order to defeat her in the last election? France also had the ability to warrantlessly do home searches? How about wearing a mortal kombat mask or burka in public? If I were to wear my mandalorian helmet in public, it would cost me $150? If you wanted to wear a vest and protest in paris you cant do that? they bring in the military and round up those protestors? they use force to end protests that the government doesnt approve of? How about free trade? Has France ratified CETA with Canada? They overwhelmingly opposed it in their senate? >Obviously, there were always disagreements, but they were mostly limited to local decisions. I beat up on France but much of the EU has seemingly abandoned freedom. >Nobody expected a US president who effectively behaves in the way you would expect a Russian asset to behave. In hindsight, this was wrong, but I don't think it was obvious that one could or should predict this during Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, or even Trump's first term. I'm not from USA but this Trump = Russian hoax stuff was very well dispelled. He maintained all the sanctions on Russia. His moves recently greatly harm Russia and China.
senko 2y ago
At least in my corner of the EU woods, Microsoft is so ingrained in government processes (at all levels) that it's nigh impossible to remove. It would take an EU directive pushing "open source or EU sourced" down our govt's collective throats, and a few decades, to actually implement. Instead I suspect it'll lead to many loud initiatives, a few €B to the usual players, and a quiet promise to Microsoft, Amazon, Oracle and others to not to worry.
- miohtama 2y ago
  China and Russia have managed to eliminate Microsoft software in the government with some success.
  - DeathArrow 2y ago
    Yes, because they needed to and had the will to do it.
    - timbit42 2y ago
      The rest of the world needs to as well and their wills are strengthening.
josefritzishere 2y ago
This is another Trumpian miscalculation that will certainly cost America in the long term.
- atmavatar 2y ago
  It's only a miscalculation if it was unintentional. It's increasingly difficult to to give the benefit of the doubt that this isn't deliberate self-sabotage.
sylens 2y ago
To switch to an European alternative, there has to be a European alternative. What is the EU doing to encourage and facilitate companies building these alternatives?
- tomconte 2y ago
  There are many alternatives. Check out https://european-alternatives.eu https://european-alternatives.eu
  - mrbn100ful 2y ago
    Let's have a quick look: Qwant France EU Hosting Sure, but the search engine behind is monstly Bing. Startpage Netherlands EU Hosting Use Bing and Google Ecosia Germany EU Hosting Use Bing, Google Yahoo and Wikipedia This is not how you build alternative platforms. The only true Independents search engine are Brave Search and Kagi both from the US. The EU can't compete, we are lagging behind.
    - ColinHayhurst 2y ago
      You missed independent search engine Mojeek (UK), and which Kagi uses.
    - pythux 2y ago
      Kagi is not independent: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm... Disclaimer: I work at Brave.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  >What is the EU doing to encourage and facilitate companies building these alternatives? More reglementation, more regulation, more bureaucracy and a lot of talks. Some more officials and "researchers" will be employed to talk about it even more.
tomconte 2y ago
I recently found this site: https://european-alternatives.eu https://european-alternatives.eu. I think there are many EU-based alternatives to U.S. tech that are not very well-known. I have started moving some personal stuff to Codeberg and statichost.eu.
- VagabundoP 2y ago
  I'm actually impressed with some of the software there. Its matured quite a lot since I last looked at it. I might try OnlyOffice. I've never really gelled with LibreOffice due to the UI. My organisation has recently gone all in on MS intune/O365. Its been happening gradually but accelerated recently. I think some heavy taffies might make us look at it again, but probably not.
  - MaurizioPz 2y ago
    LibreOffice UI can be changed (ribbon style) if you prefer. Just saying because I realized it quite recently
    - VagabundoP 2y ago
      Oh I'll try that, thanks.
Aldipower 2y ago
I am missing a great email provider here in EU for transactional emails. User notifications, welcome emails and so.. Currently I am using US based Postmark and I am very happy. Straight forward to set up, great deliverability, cheap, transparent. Nothing comparable here in the EU. It's either too complicated, very expensive or just shitty.
- omnimus 2y ago
  I agree. We have been very much EU stack for years in everything but Postmark.
DeathArrow 2y ago
Europe is in a tough place. Not only most software platforms are from the US, but also most of the hardware. For Europe to catch up it will need lots of startups which can grow up and become unicorns. This isn't going to happen because of the mindset, bureaucracy, reglementation, lack of capital and lack of time. China is in a better position to become independent of US tech than all the EU countries together.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
penguin_booze 2y ago
> If his last term is any indication Too early for that forecast, don't you think?
spwa4 2y ago
No it didn't. The only thing saving the Irish government from bankruptcy is special (illegal according to EU law) Irish tax deals with MAG7 companies. Facebook. AWS. Microsoft. Oracle. Google. Salesforce. Ireland was forced to renegotiate those tax deals after the action taken against the "double dutch sandwich" ... and it looks like they decided to just cut out the Netherlands. Why does that matter? Ireland has veto power over what the EU does, and has already used it to prevent taxation of the internet giants. The EU cannot put serious effort in this, because that veto would just be used again.

106 points by doener 2y ago

I hope the EU comes out stronger and united over all of these hyperpolicy changes.

> How can we keep control of our own data when U.S. laws reach far beyond American borders? One can start by not taking drugs. Then, after some days, one can type "snowden" in a search engine and press Enter. /s

Aldipower 2y ago
I've followed your advice, stopped taking drugs, typing in "snowden", pressed enter. Woah! I better take drugs again!

graemep 2y ago

I think digital sovereignty is a great idea, but no European country has been seriously committed to it. A few examples. * In the UK the NHS and a number of other government services use AWS heavily. * A lot of businesses all over the world use AWS, Cloudflare, Google Drive and other "cloud" and similar services. Some of these are quite hard to move off. This includes critical businesses such as banks. * I believe most Windows users now really on MS accounts to login to their PCs * The vast majority of mobile devices rely on Google or Apple for updates and software installation, as do almost all desktops (a few Linux and BSD users aside). * American companies dominate payment systems. Any one of these gives US companies a huge amount of control. The most effort to put alternatives in place have been made by countries that are hostile to the US - such as Russia and China - not an attractive alternative. Governments moving to sovereign services is not enough - if the US can cripple your private sector you are finished anyway. There is no easy, quick or cheap solution.

Aldipower 2y ago
I can say the same for Deutsche Bahn and Deutsche Post. Not everything, but quite some things are running on AWS there. Hard to believe, but reality.
high_na_euv 2y ago
>American companies dominate payment systems. Well, not really For example in Poland you have Blik which is really robust
- poincaredisk 2y ago
  In Poland you have Blik which is really robust... ... and yet American companies dominate payment systems in Europe. And in Poland too. Having a choice doesn't mean that the leading option is not dominating the other ones.
JimBlackwood 2y ago
> * American companies dominate payment systems. Which ones? I can't name a single American one that "dominates". Maybe that's just my perspective but the American payment systems feel decades behind. At least in the NL we have iDeal and through EPI (European Payments Initiative) it should become the standard in the EU https://ideal.nl/en/epi-successfully-completes-acquisition-of-ideal-and-payconiq-international https://ideal.nl/en/epi-successfully-completes-acquisition-o... Then there's Klarna as well, which I think is pretty big in the EU.
- tacker2000 2y ago
  Paypal is very strong in the german speaking regions.
- wiether 2y ago
  Visa/Mastercard to begin with And now you have Apple & Google Pay for people using their smartphone You add PayPal to that and... you cover the companies that are the most widespread overall in Europe Each country has its own set of local systems, but, overall, the most commons are americans

incomingpain 2y ago

EU absolutely should do so. It's crazy that you dont run your own and then redundantly run on USA side. russia/china are rushing to stand up their own as well. Each sphere of influence will need to operate their own.

InsideOutSanta 2y ago
I feel that the European understanding has largely been that the US and Europe share a "sphere of influence." We thought we were on the same side, the side of democracy, freedom, and free trade. Obviously, there were always disagreements, but they were mostly limited to local decisions. Europe might have stronger regulations, for example, but that, by and large, did not impact the US directly; it only impacted how US companies were allowed to behave in the European market. So I don't think anyone saw a huge problem with importing a lot of digital services from the US, particularly since this leveled out some of the US trade deficit. We shipped goods to the US, and the US sold digital services to us. Nobody expected a US president who effectively behaves in the way you would expect a Russian asset to behave. In hindsight, this was wrong, but I don't think it was obvious that one could or should predict this during Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, or even Trump's first term.
- incomingpain 2y ago
  >I feel that the European understanding has largely been that the US and Europe share a "sphere of influence." We thought we were on the same side, the side of democracy, freedom, and free trade. From my pov the EU left those things behind. France is a recent example where they banned the front runner marine le pen from running. This is after a suspicious move to remove democratic options in order to defeat her in the last election? France also had the ability to warrantlessly do home searches? How about wearing a mortal kombat mask or burka in public? If I were to wear my mandalorian helmet in public, it would cost me $150? If you wanted to wear a vest and protest in paris you cant do that? they bring in the military and round up those protestors? they use force to end protests that the government doesnt approve of? How about free trade? Has France ratified CETA with Canada? They overwhelmingly opposed it in their senate? >Obviously, there were always disagreements, but they were mostly limited to local decisions. I beat up on France but much of the EU has seemingly abandoned freedom. >Nobody expected a US president who effectively behaves in the way you would expect a Russian asset to behave. In hindsight, this was wrong, but I don't think it was obvious that one could or should predict this during Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, or even Trump's first term. I'm not from USA but this Trump = Russian hoax stuff was very well dispelled. He maintained all the sanctions on Russia. His moves recently greatly harm Russia and China.

senko 2y ago

At least in my corner of the EU woods, Microsoft is so ingrained in government processes (at all levels) that it's nigh impossible to remove. It would take an EU directive pushing "open source or EU sourced" down our govt's collective throats, and a few decades, to actually implement. Instead I suspect it'll lead to many loud initiatives, a few €B to the usual players, and a quiet promise to Microsoft, Amazon, Oracle and others to not to worry.

miohtama 2y ago
China and Russia have managed to eliminate Microsoft software in the government with some success.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  Yes, because they needed to and had the will to do it.
  - timbit42 2y ago
    The rest of the world needs to as well and their wills are strengthening.

josefritzishere 2y ago

This is another Trumpian miscalculation that will certainly cost America in the long term.

atmavatar 2y ago
It's only a miscalculation if it was unintentional. It's increasingly difficult to to give the benefit of the doubt that this isn't deliberate self-sabotage.

sylens 2y ago

To switch to an European alternative, there has to be a European alternative. What is the EU doing to encourage and facilitate companies building these alternatives?

tomconte 2y ago
There are many alternatives. Check out https://european-alternatives.eu https://european-alternatives.eu
- mrbn100ful 2y ago
  Let's have a quick look: Qwant France EU Hosting Sure, but the search engine behind is monstly Bing. Startpage Netherlands EU Hosting Use Bing and Google Ecosia Germany EU Hosting Use Bing, Google Yahoo and Wikipedia This is not how you build alternative platforms. The only true Independents search engine are Brave Search and Kagi both from the US. The EU can't compete, we are lagging behind.
  - ColinHayhurst 2y ago
    You missed independent search engine Mojeek (UK), and which Kagi uses.
  - pythux 2y ago
    Kagi is not independent: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm... Disclaimer: I work at Brave.
DeathArrow 2y ago
>What is the EU doing to encourage and facilitate companies building these alternatives? More reglementation, more regulation, more bureaucracy and a lot of talks. Some more officials and "researchers" will be employed to talk about it even more.

tomconte 2y ago

I recently found this site: https://european-alternatives.eu https://european-alternatives.eu. I think there are many EU-based alternatives to U.S. tech that are not very well-known. I have started moving some personal stuff to Codeberg and statichost.eu.

VagabundoP 2y ago
I'm actually impressed with some of the software there. Its matured quite a lot since I last looked at it. I might try OnlyOffice. I've never really gelled with LibreOffice due to the UI. My organisation has recently gone all in on MS intune/O365. Its been happening gradually but accelerated recently. I think some heavy taffies might make us look at it again, but probably not.
- MaurizioPz 2y ago
  LibreOffice UI can be changed (ribbon style) if you prefer. Just saying because I realized it quite recently
  - VagabundoP 2y ago
    Oh I'll try that, thanks.

Aldipower 2y ago

I am missing a great email provider here in EU for transactional emails. User notifications, welcome emails and so.. Currently I am using US based Postmark and I am very happy. Straight forward to set up, great deliverability, cheap, transparent. Nothing comparable here in the EU. It's either too complicated, very expensive or just shitty.

omnimus 2y ago
I agree. We have been very much EU stack for years in everything but Postmark.

DeathArrow 2y ago

Europe is in a tough place. Not only most software platforms are from the US, but also most of the hardware. For Europe to catch up it will need lots of startups which can grow up and become unicorns. This isn't going to happen because of the mindset, bureaucracy, reglementation, lack of capital and lack of time. China is in a better position to become independent of US tech than all the EU countries together.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

penguin_booze 2y ago

> If his last term is any indication Too early for that forecast, don't you think?

spwa4 2y ago

No it didn't. The only thing saving the Irish government from bankruptcy is special (illegal according to EU law) Irish tax deals with MAG7 companies. Facebook. AWS. Microsoft. Oracle. Google. Salesforce. Ireland was forced to renegotiate those tax deals after the action taken against the "double dutch sandwich" ... and it looks like they decided to just cut out the Netherlands. Why does that matter? Ireland has veto power over what the EU does, and has already used it to prevent taxation of the internet giants. The EU cannot put serious effort in this, because that veto would just be used again.