5 ms·

I'm aware an immigration judge in 2019 withheld his removal and there was an unreliable witnesses claiming they heard him say he had connections, but that was i

I'm aware an immigration judge in 2019 withheld his removal and there was an unreliable witnesses claiming they heard him say he had connections, but that was in NY, not Maryland where Abrego Garcia lives. I'm also aware the Trump administration admitted they made a mistake in deporting him. Why they won't just bring him back is disturbing. He has a wife and 3 children who are all US citizens. Nobody should be defending this.

dataflow 2y ago
> Why they won't just bring him back is disturbing. He has a wife and 3 children who are all US citizens. Nobody should be defending this. Without opining on whether he should be brought back: it seems kind of a slippery slope (legally speaking) to suggest that someone should be brought back because of their family, no? I'm not sure I'd want courts to decide that people should also be subject to deportation or other punishments because of their families.
- defrost 2y ago
  The actual topography here, rather than any hypothetical buttered slope, is a man was deported in defiance of pre existing court orders that he not be deported. Is it correct that you are in favour of courts being involved in deportation decisions and those decisions being respected and paid heed to?
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > The actual topography here, rather than any hypothetical buttered slope, is a man was deported without in defiance of pre existing court orders that he not be deported. False. Garcia was concededly subject to deportation except to El Salvador. And that condition prohibiting removal to El Salvador was not issued by a "court," but rather by an immigration judge (executive branch employee).
    - goatlover 2y ago
      Was that because they were in a rush to ignore a judge's order temporarily halting the deportations?
    - matwood 2y ago
      Even the government admitted it was an administrative error.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- goatlover 2y ago
  He hasn't been charged with any crime though. If he was actually part of a dangerous gang taking orders from the Venezuelan government against the US, he should have been arrested and charged before this. That he has a family of citizens should keep him in the country. It's cruelty to split up families with deportation.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > He hasn't been charged with any crime though. The law doesn’t require being charged with or convicted of a crime for deportation. Garcia is deportable simply for being an illegal alien. The connection to MS13 is simply about prioritizing who gets deported first. Thus it makes sense that it doesn’t require a criminal conviction. > That he has a family of citizens should keep him in the country. It's cruelty to split up families with deportation. That’s not the law, and would create a tremendous moral hazard if it were the law. It’s cruel to Americans to import Latin America’s gang problems. We got the Italian mafia along with mass Italian immigration, and it took decades to clean it up. The Italian mob was doing hits in nice midtown manhattan restaurants until the 1980s until we developed RICO theories to put everyone in prison.
rayiner 2y ago
> I'm aware an immigration judge in 2019 withheld his removal and there was an unreliable witnesses claiming they heard him say he had connections, but that was in NY, not Maryland where Abrego Garcia lives. Most of that is false, and you should look at what media you've confused that has given you that false impression. In 2019, an immigration judge determined that Garcia was deportable because of his ties to MS-13 and issued a deportation order: https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24A949/354843/20250407103341248_Kristi%20Noem%20application.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24A949/354843/2025.... The relevant orders of the immigration judge and Board of Immigration Appeals are at appendix pages 1a-18a. The most relevant portion is 4a through 5a, where the Board of Immigration appeals affirms the immigration judge's determination that Garcia "is a verified member of MS-13." > I'm also aware the Trump administration admitted they made a mistake in deporting him. Incorrect. It is undisputed that, in 2019, the immigration judge issued a removal order. The only caveat was that Garcia could not be removed to El Salvador, his home country. From appendix page 46a (Garcia's brief in the current district court proceedings): > Plaintiff Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia ("Mr. Abrego Garcia") won an order from an immigration judge ("IJ") prohibiting his removal to El Salvador, after he established it was more likely than not that he would be persecuted in that country on account of a statutorily protected ground. The government could have chosen to appeal that order, but did not. The government could have chosen to remove Mr. Abrego Garcia to any other country on earth, but did not.
- goatlover 2y ago
  "The ‘evidence’ against Abrego Garcia consisted of nothing more than his Chicago Bulls hat and hoodie,” she wrote, “and a vague, uncorroborated allegation from a confidential informant claiming he belonged to MS-13’s ‘Western’ clique in New York — a place he has never lived.” - Judge Xinis “The United States government has no legal authority to snatch a person who is lawfully present in the United States off the street and remove him from the country without due process,” wrote Judge Stephanie D. Thacker, who was appointed by Mr. Obama. “The government’s contention otherwise, and its argument that the federal courts are powerless to intervene, are unconscionable.”
  - rayiner 2y ago

dataflow 2y ago

> Why they won't just bring him back is disturbing. He has a wife and 3 children who are all US citizens. Nobody should be defending this. Without opining on whether he should be brought back: it seems kind of a slippery slope (legally speaking) to suggest that someone should be brought back because of their family, no? I'm not sure I'd want courts to decide that people should also be subject to deportation or other punishments because of their families.

defrost 2y ago
The actual topography here, rather than any hypothetical buttered slope, is a man was deported in defiance of pre existing court orders that he not be deported. Is it correct that you are in favour of courts being involved in deportation decisions and those decisions being respected and paid heed to?
- rayiner 2y ago
  > The actual topography here, rather than any hypothetical buttered slope, is a man was deported without in defiance of pre existing court orders that he not be deported. False. Garcia was concededly subject to deportation except to El Salvador. And that condition prohibiting removal to El Salvador was not issued by a "court," but rather by an immigration judge (executive branch employee).
  - goatlover 2y ago
    Was that because they were in a rush to ignore a judge's order temporarily halting the deportations?
  - matwood 2y ago
    Even the government admitted it was an administrative error.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
goatlover 2y ago
He hasn't been charged with any crime though. If he was actually part of a dangerous gang taking orders from the Venezuelan government against the US, he should have been arrested and charged before this. That he has a family of citizens should keep him in the country. It's cruelty to split up families with deportation.
- rayiner 2y ago
  > He hasn't been charged with any crime though. The law doesn’t require being charged with or convicted of a crime for deportation. Garcia is deportable simply for being an illegal alien. The connection to MS13 is simply about prioritizing who gets deported first. Thus it makes sense that it doesn’t require a criminal conviction. > That he has a family of citizens should keep him in the country. It's cruelty to split up families with deportation. That’s not the law, and would create a tremendous moral hazard if it were the law. It’s cruel to Americans to import Latin America’s gang problems. We got the Italian mafia along with mass Italian immigration, and it took decades to clean it up. The Italian mob was doing hits in nice midtown manhattan restaurants until the 1980s until we developed RICO theories to put everyone in prison.

rayiner 2y ago

> I'm aware an immigration judge in 2019 withheld his removal and there was an unreliable witnesses claiming they heard him say he had connections, but that was in NY, not Maryland where Abrego Garcia lives. Most of that is false, and you should look at what media you've confused that has given you that false impression. In 2019, an immigration judge determined that Garcia was deportable because of his ties to MS-13 and issued a deportation order: https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24A949/354843/20250407103341248_Kristi%20Noem%20application.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24A949/354843/2025.... The relevant orders of the immigration judge and Board of Immigration Appeals are at appendix pages 1a-18a. The most relevant portion is 4a through 5a, where the Board of Immigration appeals affirms the immigration judge's determination that Garcia "is a verified member of MS-13." > I'm also aware the Trump administration admitted they made a mistake in deporting him. Incorrect. It is undisputed that, in 2019, the immigration judge issued a removal order. The only caveat was that Garcia could not be removed to El Salvador, his home country. From appendix page 46a (Garcia's brief in the current district court proceedings): > Plaintiff Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia ("Mr. Abrego Garcia") won an order from an immigration judge ("IJ") prohibiting his removal to El Salvador, after he established it was more likely than not that he would be persecuted in that country on account of a statutorily protected ground. The government could have chosen to appeal that order, but did not. The government could have chosen to remove Mr. Abrego Garcia to any other country on earth, but did not.

goatlover 2y ago
"The ‘evidence’ against Abrego Garcia consisted of nothing more than his Chicago Bulls hat and hoodie,” she wrote, “and a vague, uncorroborated allegation from a confidential informant claiming he belonged to MS-13’s ‘Western’ clique in New York — a place he has never lived.” - Judge Xinis “The United States government has no legal authority to snatch a person who is lawfully present in the United States off the street and remove him from the country without due process,” wrote Judge Stephanie D. Thacker, who was appointed by Mr. Obama. “The government’s contention otherwise, and its argument that the federal courts are powerless to intervene, are unconscionable.”
- rayiner 2y ago