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I don't know if this is true, but my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training.

by proee 1y ago

I don't know if this is true, but my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training. This sounds extreme to me, but I was in to see him for some AFIB episodes that were triggered from pushing myself too hard. It's worth noting that endurance athletes are 2 to 10 times more likely to develop AFIB compared to non-athletes. So this is a bit of warning to apply some level of moderation to your training.

lumost 1y ago
You can feel this in extreme cardio endurance activities. After a certain point you can quite literally feel pain in your chest while being earstwhile healthy.
- js2 1y ago
  I've run over two dozen marathons including Boston five times, several 50Ks and 100Ks, two 100 milers and both 12 and 24 hour events. I never felt pain in my chest. These long events leave me feeling weary and fatigued, and sore in places no doubt, but never what I'd call in pain, and definitely not in my chest. If I ever felt pain in my chest I'd definitely get that checked out.
  - lumost 1y ago
    It was a high altitude mountaineering event where the only real choice was forward. 5 hours in the 160+ hr range was… unpleasant. This was also my first exposure to such durations of cardio activity.
- forgotTheLast 1y ago
  I would talk to my doctor about that if I was you.
runjake 1y ago
> my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training. This strikes me as either your cardiologist being wrong or you misinterpreting what they said. Can you damage your heart doing endurance events? Most certainly. I’ve seen at least two cardiac arrests during events where the person did not survive. Does everyone who does an event suffer heart damage? No. There have been quite a number of studies mentioned in ultramarathon journals that contradict your claim. Additionally, I have run so many marathons and ultramarathons I’ve lost count. I just recently had my own extensive (and expensive, despite insurance) cardiology work where they observed no such damage. I asked them whether endurance sports cause heart damage, because I’m old and thinking of starting up again and the summary of their answer was “as long as you’re training properly, you’re good”. That said, certainly these events put short term (~weeks/~months, depending) stress on the heart. The article mentions new medical technology and techniques as increasing survivability but I also wonder if better training and awareness is also a key. When I started running ultras particularly, it was just a bunch of nutcases. But now you have “hobbyists” like soccer moms running them (and I’m thrilled about that) and doing well at them because there are sets of extremely good training knowledge out there.
- jimbob45 1y ago
  What’s your marathon PR though? (Fudge the numbers if you’re willing to share them or someone might be able to doxx you)
  - runjake 1y ago
    My PR is ~3:40, but to do that, I dropped a lot of weight (~30 lbs) and did a lot of dedicated training with a, let's say, reputable marathon coach. 3:40 is slow by "serious layperson" marathon standards, but it was about the max I could get with my at the time 40-ish yo body and ~6 months of serious training, starting from a solid baseline. I am slow, so my average marathon normally hovers around 4:00. I am not fast by any measure, but I do have ridiculous endurance.
- 9283409232 1y ago
  > Does everyone who does an event suffer heart damage? No. This is not what they said. Your doctor said that “as long as you’re training properly, you’re good” but I've trained with a lot of other people and most people don't know what properly means. They just go hard.
  - phs318u 1y ago
    This. "training properly" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here.
  - runjake 1y ago
    This is what they said and I quote: > my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training
    - 9283409232 1y ago
      > everyone who trains hard for a marathon > Does everyone who does an event suffer heart damage? These do not mean the same thing. Everyone who trains hard for a marathon is not everyone who does a marathon.
altcognito 1y ago
Everything after about 60 minutes is overkill for health, and truth be told, probably 30 minutes of reasonably vigorous cardio is probably an ideal amount. I say this as a daily runner and someone who runs halves fairly regularly. https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/heart-attacks-uncommon-during-marathons/ https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/1...
- Mistletoe 1y ago
  For people that want more data, I always go back to this study which I find fascinating. I run once per week and 7 miles at a time. https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/s0025-6196(16)00068-9/fulltext https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/s0025-6196(16)... Something like that seems to have the best outcomes (will it help you not die?) and it fits with how I feel. Running more than once a week always made me get worn down. My best 5k time came from running one long run a week and lifting weights the rest of the week. I was effectively just wasting my time with the other runs in the week. I don't suggest this for a real professional runner, but for weekend warrior types like me, I think it works well. And I have won my age group before in a race, so I'm not a total novice.
  - komaromy 1y ago
    What kind of 5k time did you hit with that training?
    - Mistletoe 1y ago
      I really can't remember. I'm not a speed demon doing 17 minute 5ks for sure. I'm trying to look online and it looks like I have run a 23 minute 5k a few times. I don't know if I have run faster than that or what training I was on when I ran those. I wish I could remember but I haven't done races in quite some time.
  - mathieuh 1y ago
    It depends what your goals are. Also, some people can handle more volume than others, and some people need less volume than others. I am training for a 340 km/3000 m elevation bike ride in June and I am doing 15 hours of cycling per week which is as far as I plan to take it. This is about 50 % beyond what I would normally be doing, and a couple of times after upping the volume I did get close to backing off because I felt like I was overdoing it, but after pushing through for a week I started recovering again. The difference in my fitness is almost unbelievable. I can knock out 160+ km rides with no problem when in previous years I would have found them very difficult. And beyond just results on the bike, I feel much better in myself, even than when I was doing 10 hours per week. I never get out of breath, hills I used to walk up with the dog I now realise I am walking up breathing through my nose the whole time, I handle heat much better, my resting heart rate is in the mid-to-high 40s, I have more energy, etc. If your goal is to do well at the local 5 km run in the park then lower volume is probably fine, but in my personal experience I still don’t think I’ve hit my limit even at 15 hours per week.
asdfman123 1y ago
As someone who enjoys distance running and has run some half marathons before, endurance running has some negative side effects (not as negative as no exercise at all, though). Sprinting, though, 3x/wk, is very good for you.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
skylanh 1y ago
I find HN rife with its own form of "I'm too smart" bro-science. Your cardiologist spoke directly with you; they're a trained, accredited, licensed, and in good standing professional. Go with your interpretation of what they told you. Additionally, lets learn how to over-come HN's own form of bro-science because I'm pissed off right now. Step 1: go to pubmed and throw the most basic of terms in: "marathon training cardiology damage" Step 2: Quickly review the studies listed; we want to see studies after the advent of advanced hormone and mRNA quantification--that's around 2005 to 2010 or so--or anything within the last 5-10 years. Step 3: Read through one study especially if it appears to be well setup or specific to what we are trying to understand--we can look at the abstract if we have some knowledge in the area, or are just getting a feel for the topic. Step 3b: take note of terms; this study is an easy one and has everything we want to see in the abstract: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36767963/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36767963/ "Effects of Long-Term Endurance Exercise on Cardiac Morphology, Function, and Injury Indicators among Amateur Marathon Runners" in the Int J Environ Res Public Health . 2023 Jan 31;20(3):2600. doi: 10.3390/ijerph20032600. Step 3c terms: - cardiac morphology, function, injury indicators; - left ventricular end-diastolic volume and left ventricular end-systolic volume indicator; - myocardial injury indicators, serum levels of cardiac troponin I, creatine kinase (CK), creatine kinase-MB (CK-MB), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), aspartate aminotransferase (AST), and N-terminal pro-b-type natriuretic peptide (NT-proBNP) - Long-term high-intensity endurance exercise (not indicated; but "High intensity Steady State" (HISS) and similar will creep into our vocabulary) Step 4: refine search to something like "cardiac morphology myocardial injury marathon amateur"; throw on "biological indicators", "creatine kinase" Step 5: rinse, repeat, and read deeper into some of the studies. Anyways, "Long-term high-intensity endurance exercise caused some damage to the hearts of amateur runners." and your cardiologist said the same. Or you can believe some rando giving medical advice on this forum. And honestly, I'm beyond irritated at the consistently bad takes on medicine, biomedicine, and exercise on YC HN.
- milesrout 1y ago
  >Anyways, "Long-term high-intensity endurance exercise caused some damage to the hearts of amateur runners." and your cardiologist said the same. Or you can believe some rando giving medical advice on this forum. And honestly, I'm beyond irritated at the consistently bad takes on medicine, biomedicine, and exercise on YC HN. No, his cardiologist apparently said this: >my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training. There is a huge difference between "some damage observed in some people that do X" and "everyone that does X has damage from doing X". They are completely different statements. They say different things. Scaremongering about the "dangers" of exercise causes much more harm than exercise does. Even if it were true, it would still be better to have a few heart attacks from exercise than TONS of heart attacks from obesity and unfitness.

by proee 1y ago

lumost 1y ago

You can feel this in extreme cardio endurance activities. After a certain point you can quite literally feel pain in your chest while being earstwhile healthy.

js2 1y ago
I've run over two dozen marathons including Boston five times, several 50Ks and 100Ks, two 100 milers and both 12 and 24 hour events. I never felt pain in my chest. These long events leave me feeling weary and fatigued, and sore in places no doubt, but never what I'd call in pain, and definitely not in my chest. If I ever felt pain in my chest I'd definitely get that checked out.
- lumost 1y ago
  It was a high altitude mountaineering event where the only real choice was forward. 5 hours in the 160+ hr range was… unpleasant. This was also my first exposure to such durations of cardio activity.
forgotTheLast 1y ago
I would talk to my doctor about that if I was you.

runjake 1y ago

> my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training. This strikes me as either your cardiologist being wrong or you misinterpreting what they said. Can you damage your heart doing endurance events? Most certainly. I’ve seen at least two cardiac arrests during events where the person did not survive. Does everyone who does an event suffer heart damage? No. There have been quite a number of studies mentioned in ultramarathon journals that contradict your claim. Additionally, I have run so many marathons and ultramarathons I’ve lost count. I just recently had my own extensive (and expensive, despite insurance) cardiology work where they observed no such damage. I asked them whether endurance sports cause heart damage, because I’m old and thinking of starting up again and the summary of their answer was “as long as you’re training properly, you’re good”. That said, certainly these events put short term (~weeks/~months, depending) stress on the heart. The article mentions new medical technology and techniques as increasing survivability but I also wonder if better training and awareness is also a key. When I started running ultras particularly, it was just a bunch of nutcases. But now you have “hobbyists” like soccer moms running them (and I’m thrilled about that) and doing well at them because there are sets of extremely good training knowledge out there.

jimbob45 1y ago
What’s your marathon PR though? (Fudge the numbers if you’re willing to share them or someone might be able to doxx you)
- runjake 1y ago
  My PR is ~3:40, but to do that, I dropped a lot of weight (~30 lbs) and did a lot of dedicated training with a, let's say, reputable marathon coach. 3:40 is slow by "serious layperson" marathon standards, but it was about the max I could get with my at the time 40-ish yo body and ~6 months of serious training, starting from a solid baseline. I am slow, so my average marathon normally hovers around 4:00. I am not fast by any measure, but I do have ridiculous endurance.
9283409232 1y ago
> Does everyone who does an event suffer heart damage? No. This is not what they said. Your doctor said that “as long as you’re training properly, you’re good” but I've trained with a lot of other people and most people don't know what properly means. They just go hard.
- phs318u 1y ago
  This. "training properly" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here.
- runjake 1y ago
  This is what they said and I quote: > my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training
  - 9283409232 1y ago
    > everyone who trains hard for a marathon > Does everyone who does an event suffer heart damage? These do not mean the same thing. Everyone who trains hard for a marathon is not everyone who does a marathon.

altcognito 1y ago

Everything after about 60 minutes is overkill for health, and truth be told, probably 30 minutes of reasonably vigorous cardio is probably an ideal amount. I say this as a daily runner and someone who runs halves fairly regularly. https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/heart-attacks-uncommon-during-marathons/ https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/1...

Mistletoe 1y ago
For people that want more data, I always go back to this study which I find fascinating. I run once per week and 7 miles at a time. https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/s0025-6196(16)00068-9/fulltext https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/s0025-6196(16)... Something like that seems to have the best outcomes (will it help you not die?) and it fits with how I feel. Running more than once a week always made me get worn down. My best 5k time came from running one long run a week and lifting weights the rest of the week. I was effectively just wasting my time with the other runs in the week. I don't suggest this for a real professional runner, but for weekend warrior types like me, I think it works well. And I have won my age group before in a race, so I'm not a total novice.
- komaromy 1y ago
  What kind of 5k time did you hit with that training?
  - Mistletoe 1y ago
    I really can't remember. I'm not a speed demon doing 17 minute 5ks for sure. I'm trying to look online and it looks like I have run a 23 minute 5k a few times. I don't know if I have run faster than that or what training I was on when I ran those. I wish I could remember but I haven't done races in quite some time.
- mathieuh 1y ago
  It depends what your goals are. Also, some people can handle more volume than others, and some people need less volume than others. I am training for a 340 km/3000 m elevation bike ride in June and I am doing 15 hours of cycling per week which is as far as I plan to take it. This is about 50 % beyond what I would normally be doing, and a couple of times after upping the volume I did get close to backing off because I felt like I was overdoing it, but after pushing through for a week I started recovering again. The difference in my fitness is almost unbelievable. I can knock out 160+ km rides with no problem when in previous years I would have found them very difficult. And beyond just results on the bike, I feel much better in myself, even than when I was doing 10 hours per week. I never get out of breath, hills I used to walk up with the dog I now realise I am walking up breathing through my nose the whole time, I handle heat much better, my resting heart rate is in the mid-to-high 40s, I have more energy, etc. If your goal is to do well at the local 5 km run in the park then lower volume is probably fine, but in my personal experience I still don’t think I’ve hit my limit even at 15 hours per week.

asdfman123 1y ago

As someone who enjoys distance running and has run some half marathons before, endurance running has some negative side effects (not as negative as no exercise at all, though). Sprinting, though, 3x/wk, is very good for you.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

skylanh 1y ago

I find HN rife with its own form of "I'm too smart" bro-science. Your cardiologist spoke directly with you; they're a trained, accredited, licensed, and in good standing professional. Go with your interpretation of what they told you. Additionally, lets learn how to over-come HN's own form of bro-science because I'm pissed off right now. Step 1: go to pubmed and throw the most basic of terms in: "marathon training cardiology damage" Step 2: Quickly review the studies listed; we want to see studies after the advent of advanced hormone and mRNA quantification--that's around 2005 to 2010 or so--or anything within the last 5-10 years. Step 3: Read through one study especially if it appears to be well setup or specific to what we are trying to understand--we can look at the abstract if we have some knowledge in the area, or are just getting a feel for the topic. Step 3b: take note of terms; this study is an easy one and has everything we want to see in the abstract: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36767963/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36767963/ "Effects of Long-Term Endurance Exercise on Cardiac Morphology, Function, and Injury Indicators among Amateur Marathon Runners" in the Int J Environ Res Public Health . 2023 Jan 31;20(3):2600. doi: 10.3390/ijerph20032600. Step 3c terms: - cardiac morphology, function, injury indicators; - left ventricular end-diastolic volume and left ventricular end-systolic volume indicator; - myocardial injury indicators, serum levels of cardiac troponin I, creatine kinase (CK), creatine kinase-MB (CK-MB), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), aspartate aminotransferase (AST), and N-terminal pro-b-type natriuretic peptide (NT-proBNP) - Long-term high-intensity endurance exercise (not indicated; but "High intensity Steady State" (HISS) and similar will creep into our vocabulary) Step 4: refine search to something like "cardiac morphology myocardial injury marathon amateur"; throw on "biological indicators", "creatine kinase" Step 5: rinse, repeat, and read deeper into some of the studies. Anyways, "Long-term high-intensity endurance exercise caused some damage to the hearts of amateur runners." and your cardiologist said the same. Or you can believe some rando giving medical advice on this forum. And honestly, I'm beyond irritated at the consistently bad takes on medicine, biomedicine, and exercise on YC HN.

milesrout 1y ago
>Anyways, "Long-term high-intensity endurance exercise caused some damage to the hearts of amateur runners." and your cardiologist said the same. Or you can believe some rando giving medical advice on this forum. And honestly, I'm beyond irritated at the consistently bad takes on medicine, biomedicine, and exercise on YC HN. No, his cardiologist apparently said this: >my cardiologist said that everyone who trains hard for a marathon has some level of heart damage from the excessive training. There is a huge difference between "some damage observed in some people that do X" and "everyone that does X has damage from doing X". They are completely different statements. They say different things. Scaremongering about the "dangers" of exercise causes much more harm than exercise does. Even if it were true, it would still be better to have a few heart attacks from exercise than TONS of heart attacks from obesity and unfitness.