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This brings back something we've mostly lost in modern times. Elders had respect because they knew a lot and had contributed a lot, and everyone knew that. But

This brings back something we've mostly lost in modern times. Elders had respect because they knew a lot and had contributed a lot, and everyone knew that. But that's not scalable, and we migrate a lot more now. This is an engaging way that brings that back - rather than focusing on fantasy heroes, show kids real life role models.

zdragnar 2y ago
It's even less that we move around a lot more; technology advanced with the personal computer and Internet such that kids see adults not knowing things about the world that they already do. What is decades of personal lived experience wisdom when there's tiktok and YouTube and chatbots?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  >kids see adults not knowing things about the world that they already do In the age where anyone can find anything online, experience is more valuable than it ever was. Technology won't replace that.
phil21 2y ago
In the US we are at all time lows for internal migration. Or at least very close to them, I haven’t checked those stats in a couple years since this last came up on HN. We used to (as a population) migrate to opportunity far more than we do now. For many reasons there is simply far less community engagement and integration going on. Fewer people put down strong “roots” in their communities these days.
- klabb3 2y ago
  Thats surprising, I thought moving was less common than now. In either case, is it possible that the single households is the other factor, people choosing more instead of interacting with whoever is around?
  - etrautmann 2y ago
    It might be who’s migrating. Possibly the coastal PMC workers sloshing back and forth while blue collar workers have less mobility than the 60s?
  - kortilla 2y ago
    When? In my grandparents generation (born late 1800s to early 1900s) moving to either try to start a farm in the US or to leave a failing farm for a job in town at the local whatever factory was very common. Post WW2 for the boomers was loaded with people flooding to all kinds of industrial boom cities. After that it was hollowing out of the rust belt and moving out of cities to suburbs due to the lead/crime epidemic. Then rich cities boomed back with millennials in a continuous feedback loop where the successful ones became more desirable as money brought attractions/activities/restaurants, draining the failing ones even more. Then 2020 was the brief mega disruption where people thought the internet might catch on and they found out the vast majority of white collar jobs can be done from home so the fanned out to all of the nice and cheap suburbs, mountain towns, etc. Now the Internet fad has worn off so that’s reversing a bit. Moving in the US has been very common until this brief lull where you could change jobs without relocating thanks to remote work. Unfortunately we’re going backwards so it wouldn’t surprise me if constant relocation resumes.
    - c4ptnjack 2y ago
      The main factor that you fail to mention is living cost, and not the internet, which made it possible and desirable to frequently move in search of opportunity. It didn't mean there weren't people that lived long-term in communities. However, it did mean that you could find more lucrative opportunities in different places while also affording to move and live there. That began to slowly change in the 60's, beginning with the death of single occupancy residences and a lack of funding/investment in affordable housing for a significant portion of income brackets. The last 30ish years helped cement that for lots of reasons, but the ability to work remotely via the internet isn't particularly new nor causative for that change.
      - 2y ago
makeitdouble 2y ago
Worth noting that the relations to elder is really getting rocky, and people are rethinking them in both directions. We can't hide from the influence the elder generations had on the current situation. Japan is a developed nation with a crazy low crime rate and incredible infrastructure thanks to them. It's also a social mess and the poster child of stagnation thanks to them. This whole trading card game surfaces both sides of the coin, with what these people are bringing to the community and also why small kids shouldn't look to much upon them as it's a recipe for trouble.
- danielscrubs 2y ago
  Japan always does the hard thing. If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other about how the person misbehaves (they are not afraid). The prisons are very strict, with beatings if you don’t follow authority. The police acts swiftly and have small offices everywhere . Green tea and healthy food makes people be able to control their mood (hard to not stuff your face). The rules are very open and clear. The deincentives for misconduct are strong. The newspapers focus are different. More fun or actionable news. People just think they are built different, that is not the case. They just succeed with many small things that makes a greater whole. But people just dismiss it as a culture thing, which is reductive.
  - DeathArrow 2y ago
    >They just succeed with many small things that makes a greater whole. But people just dismiss it as a culture thing, which is reductive. Aren't rules part of the culture? The culture helps strengthening the rules while the rules help strengthening the culture.
    - tankenmate 2y ago
      出る釘は打たれる。
      - pmontra 2y ago
qwertox 2y ago
I've been taught to respect the elders. But now I've seen that there are enough of them which aren't honest, good people, but only know how to present themselves in a positive light, while looking down on the ones they live with. I now stand neutral against them: they may be good, they may not be. There's nothing in their age which makes them deserve more respect than the one younger people deserve.
- ConspiracyFact 2y ago
  So do you respect 12-year-olds as much as you respect 25-year-olds? Do you respect the opinions on work and adult responsibilities of a 23-year-old as much as those of a 35-year-old? Do you trust the professional judgment of a junior engineer as much as that of a senior engineer? Older people, in general, know more and have better judgment than younger people.
  - anthk 2y ago
    Not in Japan.
  - piltdownman 2y ago
    You're conflating age with wisdom - a common fallacy when charisma is valued over education, leading to Septuagenarian Heads of State ruling on partisan lines rather than Technocratic and egalitarian governance.
    - ConspiracyFact 2y ago
      Age correlates with wisdom. It’s not a fallacy. I don’t claim that every person is wiser than all people younger than him.
- lazide 2y ago
  All you know about an old person is they’ve lived - and survived - longer than someone who is not so old. That can have a lot of different meanings.
Tade0 2y ago
It used to be that elders were few and far between, as the population pyramid was, well, a pyramid. The other day I joked in conversation that I raise my daughters to disrespect the elderly - particularly my generation in the future - as considering the fertility rates (worse than in Japan) in the region, there will be plenty of elderly compared to younger generations. I'm only half joking really. My own parents are reaching the age at which they would use some help every now and then. I have two siblings, so it doesn't take huge individual effort from any of us. Meanwhile I'm the only one there who has children and most likely that will remain the case. Should they feel any obligation to help my siblings once the time comes?
- ramblerman 2y ago
  You can teach them whatever you want, but the model of the world you give them is also what they will pass on to their kids. "Family is a burden, and screw old people" doesn't seem that conducive to a good society.
  - tankenmate 2y ago
    I get the sneaking suspicion that this might be a case of Poe's law.
  - Tade0 2y ago
    I'm going more for "screw just old people". Nowhere in my parenting there's even a mention of family being a burden - well, the younger part at least. Anyway, again, half-joking here - I'm not actively pursuing this approach, just not nudging them towards the traditional one. I spent some years in Italy, where the younger generations are absolutely squeezed by the presence of a huge population of elderly. It went to such bizarre extremes where my one Italian friend not only doesn't own a home being in his 40s now, whereas both of his divorced parents each have their own properties, his salary is lower than his father's pension. Kids are of course out of the question. My country is speedrunning this same scenario and the only thing preventing it from happening now is considerably lower life expectancy compared to Italy.
    - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
huijzer 2y ago
I think society hasn’t figured out the incentives for elders currently. In private settings it’s fine, but in the work context I’ve seen few incentives for >50 year olds to support younger generations. To the contrary, many of these people fear losing their job just before retirement so choose risk-averse behavior. At the same time, unlike in the village, the juniors are not their relatives so that is also not incentivizing any positive behavior. And yes there are of course very nice people who are the exception, but from what I’ve seen they are truly the exception. As Charlie Munger put it “Well, I think I’ve been in the top 5% of my age cohort all my life in understanding the power of incentives, and all my life I’ve underestimated it. And never a year passes but I get some surprise that pushes my limit a little farther.”
msluyter 2y ago
Saying this as a rather old person myself... I have a theory that, wrt knowledge, the relative advantage of age has been at least partially eroded by rapid technological advancement. In traditional/tribal societies, prior to the 20th century, wisdom actually accumulated with age, because the pace of change was slower. Wisdom & knowledge could be passed on from generation to generation. Now, wisdom and knowledge become obsolete quickly. Many things you knew 20 years ago are outdated. The ICE engine you learned how to fix as a kid is now computer controlled, or has been replaced by batteries. Your optimistic/open/friendly mindset now makes you easy pickings for online scammers. Hell, even your family's secret cherished muffin recipe is spurned by your grandchildren because it has gluten or they're vegan or keto or whatever. All this is just a take, but when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average.
- baxtr 2y ago
  I think this is true from a pure knowledge perspective but definitely not from a wisdom perspective. Old people have -through their experience- gained a tacit wisdom that can be very helpful when considering life choices.
  - rjbwork 2y ago
    The craziest and stupidest things I hear regularly are from older people. There are broad swathes of old people that, not having been raised to be skeptical about media consumption on the internet, are entirely credulous about all manner of insane dis/mis-information. That said, it's also something I'm seeing with younger people as well.
    - nobodyandproud 2y ago
      The oldest are the easiest to swindle. This isn’t new. Also, current media has the veneer and polish of old media which makes it difficult for the unsavvy.
    - baxtr 2y ago
      Yeah, maybe it’s more hope than reality
akudha 2y ago
There was a news article few months ago, about waiting times for healthcare (in the UK, if I remember correctly). One govt official commented something like older people having to wait longer to see physicians is "not a priority". I was stunned reading it, didn't even know how to react. It is nice to read articles like this. I wish more humans looked at other humans beyond their youth, looks and their net worth
InDubioProRubio 2y ago
My dad got a guy assigned to his farm once from the unemployment office once. Guy was in third generation unemployed. Tried to bribe himself out of shovelling shit, but my father wouldn't take the money. The tales a 90 year old person made redundant by society and thus avoiding society must have to tell. Stay a while and listen..

zdragnar 2y ago

It's even less that we move around a lot more; technology advanced with the personal computer and Internet such that kids see adults not knowing things about the world that they already do. What is decades of personal lived experience wisdom when there's tiktok and YouTube and chatbots?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
DeathArrow 2y ago
>kids see adults not knowing things about the world that they already do In the age where anyone can find anything online, experience is more valuable than it ever was. Technology won't replace that.

phil21 2y ago

In the US we are at all time lows for internal migration. Or at least very close to them, I haven’t checked those stats in a couple years since this last came up on HN. We used to (as a population) migrate to opportunity far more than we do now. For many reasons there is simply far less community engagement and integration going on. Fewer people put down strong “roots” in their communities these days.

klabb3 2y ago
Thats surprising, I thought moving was less common than now. In either case, is it possible that the single households is the other factor, people choosing more instead of interacting with whoever is around?
- etrautmann 2y ago
  It might be who’s migrating. Possibly the coastal PMC workers sloshing back and forth while blue collar workers have less mobility than the 60s?
- kortilla 2y ago
  When? In my grandparents generation (born late 1800s to early 1900s) moving to either try to start a farm in the US or to leave a failing farm for a job in town at the local whatever factory was very common. Post WW2 for the boomers was loaded with people flooding to all kinds of industrial boom cities. After that it was hollowing out of the rust belt and moving out of cities to suburbs due to the lead/crime epidemic. Then rich cities boomed back with millennials in a continuous feedback loop where the successful ones became more desirable as money brought attractions/activities/restaurants, draining the failing ones even more. Then 2020 was the brief mega disruption where people thought the internet might catch on and they found out the vast majority of white collar jobs can be done from home so the fanned out to all of the nice and cheap suburbs, mountain towns, etc. Now the Internet fad has worn off so that’s reversing a bit. Moving in the US has been very common until this brief lull where you could change jobs without relocating thanks to remote work. Unfortunately we’re going backwards so it wouldn’t surprise me if constant relocation resumes.
  - c4ptnjack 2y ago
    The main factor that you fail to mention is living cost, and not the internet, which made it possible and desirable to frequently move in search of opportunity. It didn't mean there weren't people that lived long-term in communities. However, it did mean that you could find more lucrative opportunities in different places while also affording to move and live there. That began to slowly change in the 60's, beginning with the death of single occupancy residences and a lack of funding/investment in affordable housing for a significant portion of income brackets. The last 30ish years helped cement that for lots of reasons, but the ability to work remotely via the internet isn't particularly new nor causative for that change.
    - 2y ago

makeitdouble 2y ago

Worth noting that the relations to elder is really getting rocky, and people are rethinking them in both directions. We can't hide from the influence the elder generations had on the current situation. Japan is a developed nation with a crazy low crime rate and incredible infrastructure thanks to them. It's also a social mess and the poster child of stagnation thanks to them. This whole trading card game surfaces both sides of the coin, with what these people are bringing to the community and also why small kids shouldn't look to much upon them as it's a recipe for trouble.

danielscrubs 2y ago
Japan always does the hard thing. If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other about how the person misbehaves (they are not afraid). The prisons are very strict, with beatings if you don’t follow authority. The police acts swiftly and have small offices everywhere . Green tea and healthy food makes people be able to control their mood (hard to not stuff your face). The rules are very open and clear. The deincentives for misconduct are strong. The newspapers focus are different. More fun or actionable news. People just think they are built different, that is not the case. They just succeed with many small things that makes a greater whole. But people just dismiss it as a culture thing, which is reductive.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  >They just succeed with many small things that makes a greater whole. But people just dismiss it as a culture thing, which is reductive. Aren't rules part of the culture? The culture helps strengthening the rules while the rules help strengthening the culture.
  - tankenmate 2y ago
    出る釘は打たれる。
    - pmontra 2y ago

qwertox 2y ago

I've been taught to respect the elders. But now I've seen that there are enough of them which aren't honest, good people, but only know how to present themselves in a positive light, while looking down on the ones they live with. I now stand neutral against them: they may be good, they may not be. There's nothing in their age which makes them deserve more respect than the one younger people deserve.

ConspiracyFact 2y ago
So do you respect 12-year-olds as much as you respect 25-year-olds? Do you respect the opinions on work and adult responsibilities of a 23-year-old as much as those of a 35-year-old? Do you trust the professional judgment of a junior engineer as much as that of a senior engineer? Older people, in general, know more and have better judgment than younger people.
- anthk 2y ago
  Not in Japan.
- piltdownman 2y ago
  You're conflating age with wisdom - a common fallacy when charisma is valued over education, leading to Septuagenarian Heads of State ruling on partisan lines rather than Technocratic and egalitarian governance.
  - ConspiracyFact 2y ago
    Age correlates with wisdom. It’s not a fallacy. I don’t claim that every person is wiser than all people younger than him.
lazide 2y ago
All you know about an old person is they’ve lived - and survived - longer than someone who is not so old. That can have a lot of different meanings.

Tade0 2y ago

It used to be that elders were few and far between, as the population pyramid was, well, a pyramid. The other day I joked in conversation that I raise my daughters to disrespect the elderly - particularly my generation in the future - as considering the fertility rates (worse than in Japan) in the region, there will be plenty of elderly compared to younger generations. I'm only half joking really. My own parents are reaching the age at which they would use some help every now and then. I have two siblings, so it doesn't take huge individual effort from any of us. Meanwhile I'm the only one there who has children and most likely that will remain the case. Should they feel any obligation to help my siblings once the time comes?

ramblerman 2y ago
You can teach them whatever you want, but the model of the world you give them is also what they will pass on to their kids. "Family is a burden, and screw old people" doesn't seem that conducive to a good society.
- tankenmate 2y ago
  I get the sneaking suspicion that this might be a case of Poe's law.
- Tade0 2y ago
  I'm going more for "screw just old people". Nowhere in my parenting there's even a mention of family being a burden - well, the younger part at least. Anyway, again, half-joking here - I'm not actively pursuing this approach, just not nudging them towards the traditional one. I spent some years in Italy, where the younger generations are absolutely squeezed by the presence of a huge population of elderly. It went to such bizarre extremes where my one Italian friend not only doesn't own a home being in his 40s now, whereas both of his divorced parents each have their own properties, his salary is lower than his father's pension. Kids are of course out of the question. My country is speedrunning this same scenario and the only thing preventing it from happening now is considerably lower life expectancy compared to Italy.
  - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

huijzer 2y ago

I think society hasn’t figured out the incentives for elders currently. In private settings it’s fine, but in the work context I’ve seen few incentives for >50 year olds to support younger generations. To the contrary, many of these people fear losing their job just before retirement so choose risk-averse behavior. At the same time, unlike in the village, the juniors are not their relatives so that is also not incentivizing any positive behavior. And yes there are of course very nice people who are the exception, but from what I’ve seen they are truly the exception. As Charlie Munger put it “Well, I think I’ve been in the top 5% of my age cohort all my life in understanding the power of incentives, and all my life I’ve underestimated it. And never a year passes but I get some surprise that pushes my limit a little farther.”

msluyter 2y ago

Saying this as a rather old person myself... I have a theory that, wrt knowledge, the relative advantage of age has been at least partially eroded by rapid technological advancement. In traditional/tribal societies, prior to the 20th century, wisdom actually accumulated with age, because the pace of change was slower. Wisdom & knowledge could be passed on from generation to generation. Now, wisdom and knowledge become obsolete quickly. Many things you knew 20 years ago are outdated. The ICE engine you learned how to fix as a kid is now computer controlled, or has been replaced by batteries. Your optimistic/open/friendly mindset now makes you easy pickings for online scammers. Hell, even your family's secret cherished muffin recipe is spurned by your grandchildren because it has gluten or they're vegan or keto or whatever. All this is just a take, but when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average.

baxtr 2y ago
I think this is true from a pure knowledge perspective but definitely not from a wisdom perspective. Old people have -through their experience- gained a tacit wisdom that can be very helpful when considering life choices.
- rjbwork 2y ago
  The craziest and stupidest things I hear regularly are from older people. There are broad swathes of old people that, not having been raised to be skeptical about media consumption on the internet, are entirely credulous about all manner of insane dis/mis-information. That said, it's also something I'm seeing with younger people as well.
  - nobodyandproud 2y ago
    The oldest are the easiest to swindle. This isn’t new. Also, current media has the veneer and polish of old media which makes it difficult for the unsavvy.
  - baxtr 2y ago
    Yeah, maybe it’s more hope than reality

akudha 2y ago

There was a news article few months ago, about waiting times for healthcare (in the UK, if I remember correctly). One govt official commented something like older people having to wait longer to see physicians is "not a priority". I was stunned reading it, didn't even know how to react. It is nice to read articles like this. I wish more humans looked at other humans beyond their youth, looks and their net worth

InDubioProRubio 2y ago

My dad got a guy assigned to his farm once from the unemployment office once. Guy was in third generation unemployed. Tried to bribe himself out of shovelling shit, but my father wouldn't take the money. The tales a 90 year old person made redundant by society and thus avoiding society must have to tell. Stay a while and listen..