5 ms·

Requiring people to be able to interact with other people is not "bigotry".

by creato 1y ago

eikenberry 1y ago
No, but ignoring their disabilities and saying to just learn to do better is not good enough. It is no different from telling a deaf person to learn to hear with their other sense, it doesn't make sense as their disability is what prevents it. People do need to be able to interact with other people, it just doesn't work like it does with non-neurodivergent people. It takes an effort on both sides. Quit putting it all on the person who cannot do what you want. That is the bigotry.
- donnachangstein 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - eikenberry 1y ago
    Sorry for the offense, it is hard coming up with analogies that don't offend someone. Should probably just have left it out. But neurodivergense is not just a lack of social skills. Painting it this way is one of the reasons people don't understand it and act with bias against those suffering from it. It is a disability and is recognized by the ADA.
    - root_axis 1y ago
      I think the tension comes from the fact that the term "neurodivergent" doesn't have a specific clinical definition, it's a catch all term that is often used in a colloquial manner that lacks a meaningful diagnosis behind it. Typically, in a context where practical accomodations are being discussed one would want to address specific needs. A person with dyslexia isn't going to need the same accomodations as someone with ADHD, for example
      - donnachangstein 1y ago
        Accommodations usually (but not always) require diagnosis or confirmation by a doctor or other medical professional, and the law affords companies this discretion before granting one, whereas nonspecific 'neurodivergence' is often self-diagnosed. All this aside, if you have e.g. crippling anxiety such that you can't make it through an interview unaided, you probably won't be successful in that job, whatever it is. Whereas a deaf person or someone in a wheelchair would have no long-term problem.
        ksenzee 1y ago
        Social anxiety can be quite specific; fine with small groups but terrified of public speaking, or terrified of new people but fine once you get to know people, or fine with speaking in front of thousands of people but not with the Uber ride to the convention center. I can very easily imagine someone who would do very well on a team of eight people and no client contact but would find the interview itself impossible.
        GreenWatermelon 1y ago
        The way I see it, Autism is more a kin to color-blindness, while crippling anxiety is na actual illness/disorder that should be addressed with therapy. And while someone on the autism spectrum is born that way, anxiety is inflicted. Of course, Genetic temperament plays a role in one's predisposition to anxiety, just like with many physiological illnesses. In a nutshell, Autism is neither an illness or disorder, but merely a "different order", while crippling anxiety is actually a disorder.
        nick__m 1y ago
        At some point on the spectrum it is a seriously crippling disability. Where I live there are supervised residances for severly Autistic people and the people living there cannot function on their own without supervision. The "monchénou" network of residances saves them from homeless or institutionalization. The kind of autism discussed here is, trivialize their experiences and challenges. It's borderline insulting to those for witch it is a disorder.
qkeast 1y ago
I'm deaf and rely on real-time captions for calls. In an in-person interview scenario, I'm at a huge disadvantage and not able to perform at my best. In a video call, I'm on equal ground. It's not as simple as "requiring people to be able to interact with other people."
- donnachangstein 1y ago
  Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability e.g. providing a deaf person the interview questions on paper or even having an ASL interpreter present. In fact many mention it up front on the screening call before any questions are asked.
  - niccl 1y ago
    > Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability?
    - nradov 1y ago
      That depends on several factors. You should read the official guidance. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reasonable-accommodation-and-undue-hardship-under-ada#reasonable https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reas...
    - donnachangstein 1y ago
      > so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability? It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't, if being able to function well around other humans is a job requirement, as it often is in technical occupations. Why do you think behavioral questions are often asked during interviews? For the same reason someone who requires a wheelchair could not reasonably be expected to be a firefighter, or a blind person be a pilot or bus driver, regardless of any accommodation provided.

Requiring people to be able to interact with other people is not "bigotry".

by creato 1y ago

Requiring people to be able to interact with other people is not "bigotry".

No, but ignoring their disabilities and saying to just learn to do better is not good enough. It is no different from telling a deaf person to learn to hear with their other sense, it doesn't make sense as their disability is what prevents it. People do need to be able to interact with other people, it just doesn't work like it does with non-neurodivergent people. It takes an effort on both sides. Quit putting it all on the person who cannot do what you want. That is the bigotry.

donnachangstein 1y ago
[flagged]
- eikenberry 1y ago
  Sorry for the offense, it is hard coming up with analogies that don't offend someone. Should probably just have left it out. But neurodivergense is not just a lack of social skills. Painting it this way is one of the reasons people don't understand it and act with bias against those suffering from it. It is a disability and is recognized by the ADA.
  - root_axis 1y ago
    I think the tension comes from the fact that the term "neurodivergent" doesn't have a specific clinical definition, it's a catch all term that is often used in a colloquial manner that lacks a meaningful diagnosis behind it. Typically, in a context where practical accomodations are being discussed one would want to address specific needs. A person with dyslexia isn't going to need the same accomodations as someone with ADHD, for example
    - donnachangstein 1y ago
      Accommodations usually (but not always) require diagnosis or confirmation by a doctor or other medical professional, and the law affords companies this discretion before granting one, whereas nonspecific 'neurodivergence' is often self-diagnosed. All this aside, if you have e.g. crippling anxiety such that you can't make it through an interview unaided, you probably won't be successful in that job, whatever it is. Whereas a deaf person or someone in a wheelchair would have no long-term problem.
      - ksenzee 1y ago
        Social anxiety can be quite specific; fine with small groups but terrified of public speaking, or terrified of new people but fine once you get to know people, or fine with speaking in front of thousands of people but not with the Uber ride to the convention center. I can very easily imagine someone who would do very well on a team of eight people and no client contact but would find the interview itself impossible.
      - GreenWatermelon 1y ago
        The way I see it, Autism is more a kin to color-blindness, while crippling anxiety is na actual illness/disorder that should be addressed with therapy. And while someone on the autism spectrum is born that way, anxiety is inflicted. Of course, Genetic temperament plays a role in one's predisposition to anxiety, just like with many physiological illnesses. In a nutshell, Autism is neither an illness or disorder, but merely a "different order", while crippling anxiety is actually a disorder.
        nick__m 1y ago
        At some point on the spectrum it is a seriously crippling disability. Where I live there are supervised residances for severly Autistic people and the people living there cannot function on their own without supervision. The "monchénou" network of residances saves them from homeless or institutionalization. The kind of autism discussed here is, trivialize their experiences and challenges. It's borderline insulting to those for witch it is a disorder.

qkeast 1y ago

I'm deaf and rely on real-time captions for calls. In an in-person interview scenario, I'm at a huge disadvantage and not able to perform at my best. In a video call, I'm on equal ground. It's not as simple as "requiring people to be able to interact with other people."

donnachangstein 1y ago
Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability e.g. providing a deaf person the interview questions on paper or even having an ASL interpreter present. In fact many mention it up front on the screening call before any questions are asked.
- niccl 1y ago
  > Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability?
  - nradov 1y ago
    That depends on several factors. You should read the official guidance. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reasonable-accommodation-and-undue-hardship-under-ada#reasonable https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reas...
  - donnachangstein 1y ago
    > so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability? It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't, if being able to function well around other humans is a job requirement, as it often is in technical occupations. Why do you think behavioral questions are often asked during interviews? For the same reason someone who requires a wheelchair could not reasonably be expected to be a firefighter, or a blind person be a pilot or bus driver, regardless of any accommodation provided.