7 ms·

You are right about hiring not being that much different but your prognostications are way off IMO. > - people are probably going to have to fly out for interv

You are right about hiring not being that much different but your prognostications are way off IMO. > - people are probably going to have to fly out for interviews, again. Fly where? Many companies don't have offices anymore. > - awkward and/or neurodivergent people are going to have to learn social skills again. Ahh... the age old, "just do better" position for neurodivergent people. Classic bigotry. > - And yeah, you guys, it's time to buy a suit. Suits were out in tech 30 years ago when I first interviewed. They have only gone more out of style. Fashion doesn't work the way you think it works. My guess is that we'll see more contract-to-hire positions and "talking through code" style interviews. Though I think we'll see lots of things tried which will be a general improvement over what much of the industry was doing before.

creato 2y ago
Requiring people to be able to interact with other people is not "bigotry".
- eikenberry 2y ago
  No, but ignoring their disabilities and saying to just learn to do better is not good enough. It is no different from telling a deaf person to learn to hear with their other sense, it doesn't make sense as their disability is what prevents it. People do need to be able to interact with other people, it just doesn't work like it does with non-neurodivergent people. It takes an effort on both sides. Quit putting it all on the person who cannot do what you want. That is the bigotry.
  - donnachangstein 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - eikenberry 2y ago
      Sorry for the offense, it is hard coming up with analogies that don't offend someone. Should probably just have left it out. But neurodivergense is not just a lack of social skills. Painting it this way is one of the reasons people don't understand it and act with bias against those suffering from it. It is a disability and is recognized by the ADA.
      - root_axis 2y ago
        I think the tension comes from the fact that the term "neurodivergent" doesn't have a specific clinical definition, it's a catch all term that is often used in a colloquial manner that lacks a meaningful diagnosis behind it. Typically, in a context where practical accomodations are being discussed one would want to address specific needs. A person with dyslexia isn't going to need the same accomodations as someone with ADHD, for example
        donnachangstein 2y ago
        Accommodations usually (but not always) require diagnosis or confirmation by a doctor or other medical professional, and the law affords companies this discretion before granting one, whereas nonspecific 'neurodivergence' is often self-diagnosed. All this aside, if you have e.g. crippling anxiety such that you can't make it through an interview unaided, you probably won't be successful in that job, whatever it is. Whereas a deaf person or someone in a wheelchair would have no long-term problem.
        ksenzee 2y ago
        Social anxiety can be quite specific; fine with small groups but terrified of public speaking, or terrified of new people but fine once you get to know people, or fine with speaking in front of thousands of people but not with the Uber ride to the convention center. I can very easily imagine someone who would do very well on a team of eight people and no client contact but would find the interview itself impossible.
        GreenWatermelon 2y ago
        The way I see it, Autism is more a kin to color-blindness, while crippling anxiety is na actual illness/disorder that should be addressed with therapy. And while someone on the autism spectrum is born that way, anxiety is inflicted. Of course, Genetic temperament plays a role in one's predisposition to anxiety, just like with many physiological illnesses. In a nutshell, Autism is neither an illness or disorder, but merely a "different order", while crippling anxiety is actually a disorder.
- qkeast 2y ago
  I'm deaf and rely on real-time captions for calls. In an in-person interview scenario, I'm at a huge disadvantage and not able to perform at my best. In a video call, I'm on equal ground. It's not as simple as "requiring people to be able to interact with other people."
  - donnachangstein 2y ago
    Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability e.g. providing a deaf person the interview questions on paper or even having an ASL interpreter present. In fact many mention it up front on the screening call before any questions are asked.
    - niccl 2y ago
      > Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability?
      - nradov 2y ago
        That depends on several factors. You should read the official guidance. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reasonable-accommodation-and-undue-hardship-under-ada#reasonable https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reas...
      - donnachangstein 2y ago
        > so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability? It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't, if being able to function well around other humans is a job requirement, as it often is in technical occupations. Why do you think behavioral questions are often asked during interviews? For the same reason someone who requires a wheelchair could not reasonably be expected to be a firefighter, or a blind person be a pilot or bus driver, regardless of any accommodation provided.
PantaloonFlames 2y ago
> Fly where? Many companies don't have offices anymore. Presumably to meet the boss. And maybe the key people on the team.
- eikenberry 2y ago
  So fly them to multiple destinations? I was hired 1 year ago and interviewed with ~14 people all living in different locations. That could be paired down, but it won't ever reach the single destination that the OP is referring to.
  - E_Bfx 2y ago
    Yes but it only one face to face meeting is needed in the process to see if someone is using AI to answer interview. The 13 other interviews can then be online.
    - Imustaskforhelp 2y ago
      this is a great suggestion actually!
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    Nobody is seriously suggesting you perform every interview step in person. The suggestion is to consider doing the last interview in person. It could even be with one other person.
- sjamaan 2y ago
  You can always rent a conference room for an hour or so somewhere in between.
donnachangstein 2y ago
> Classic bigotry. Hiring is all about finding the best candidate. If you find you cannot function sitting in conference room with three other people for an hour, there is a 100% chance there is a better candidate suited for the role, even if his/her technical skills are less than yours. Jobs have soft skill requirements, and there is nothing bigoted about that.
- re-thc 2y ago
  > If you find you cannot function sitting in conference room with three other people for an hour, there is a 100% chance there is a better candidate suited for the role, even if his/her technical skills are less than yours. This assumes that was the job? What if the job never talks or sits in a room with anyone? > Hiring is all about finding the best candidate. Then what is leet code about?
  - motorest 2y ago
    > This assumes that was the job? What if the job never talks or sits in a room with anyone? That's perfectly fine. Some coding jobs also don't require deep knowledge on data structures. Each company and project has its own requirements. This does not reject the value of soft skills and being able to interact with other people. You can also frame this from another perspective. How far should a hiring manager go to accommodate antisocial and straight out toxic people? Does an eggregious backstabber have the right to advance in hiring processes just because others found him unpleasant to work with?
    - fzeroracer 2y ago
      Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional.
      - motorest 2y ago
        > Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional. You're complaining about the hypothetical effectiveness of concrete hiring practices. You are not rejecting the value and importance of soft skills. Also, the ability to work under pressure is valuable skill. If you have a candidate that fails to perform when being in a room with someone else, I doubt you can argue that that's your hiring decision when other candidates are able to perform in similar circumstances.
tayo42 2y ago
> Fly where? Many companies don't have offices anymore While i dont agree with the idea we'll be flying anywhere for interviews, havent most companies gone back on remote work. "hybrid" is a benefit now and being in the office is the expectation.
motorest 2y ago
> Ahh... the age old, "just do better" position for neurodivergent people. Classic bigotry. I think you're too eager to throw personal attacks on those who raise valid points that are you feel are uncomfortable to address. You should be aware that engineering is a social activity that requires hard skills. In any project that employs more than one person, you need to be able to interact with others. This means being able to effectively address and interact with others around you. If you give anyone a choice, anyone at all, on who they work with, they will of course favor those who they are able to effectively interact with. This is not bigotry, is it?
- ang_cire 2y ago
  > they will of course favor those who they are able to effectively interact with. This is not bigotry, is it? If "those who they are able to effectively interact with" ends up meaning only people who look, act, or believe like them, then yes it absolutely is.
  - sayamqazi 2y ago
    Adding to your point. Why arent we saying that the "noraml" people are the ones bad at interacting with neurodivergents. Their supposed social skills are so limited that they can only work with people who act and behave like them.
  - lurking_swe 2y ago
    That’s an uncharitable interpretation. But if that is what it ends up meaning then i do agree, that’s bigotry. A more charitable interpretation might mean “the candidate is able to clearly explain (through some medium: orally, typing, etc) how their code works, and why they picked that solution. They were also able to correctly answer follow up questions”. If _that_ is what is meant, then that’s not bigotry IMO.
    - ljm 2y ago
      I wouldn't say uncharitable, just that the best-intentioned version is pretty naïve, especially in the current political climate where every effort to bring that kind of inclusivity and open-mindedness to the table is being actively regressed. For everyone here who appreciates the effort to remove unconscious bias from these decisions as much as possible, because they genuinely want to find the most capable person for the job regardless of their personal preferences, there's still a whole world out there where that bias is not only desirable but celebrated.
_blk 2y ago
If you have a really desirable job I wouldn't think twice about a few hours long drive/flight but eventually creativity wins the game for the hiring side. E.g. No offices, no problem: Either you recruit where you already have people or find trustees. I'd be happy to hold remote interview assist in the Colorado Springs (pot. Denver) area in my small 3ppl office if anyone from a remote-only corp doesn't have anyone on-site and wants to give it a shot...
pramsey 2y ago
> Suits were out in tech 30 years ago when I first interviewed. They have only gone more out of style. Fashion doesn't work the way you think it works. Or maybe it works exactly the way they think? Suits are so out, that wearing one is a strong signal of "different thinking" in a way that being casual once was. A colleague of mind would wear a three-piece on "casual Friday", and always showed up to the nines for interviews. Never harmed him, just reinforced his "think different" bona fides.
- thruway516 2y ago
  You're merely reinforcing their point. Its so out of fashion it would be considered a bold or even edgy choice just as dressing casually once would.

creato 2y ago

Requiring people to be able to interact with other people is not "bigotry".

eikenberry 2y ago
No, but ignoring their disabilities and saying to just learn to do better is not good enough. It is no different from telling a deaf person to learn to hear with their other sense, it doesn't make sense as their disability is what prevents it. People do need to be able to interact with other people, it just doesn't work like it does with non-neurodivergent people. It takes an effort on both sides. Quit putting it all on the person who cannot do what you want. That is the bigotry.
- donnachangstein 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - eikenberry 2y ago
    Sorry for the offense, it is hard coming up with analogies that don't offend someone. Should probably just have left it out. But neurodivergense is not just a lack of social skills. Painting it this way is one of the reasons people don't understand it and act with bias against those suffering from it. It is a disability and is recognized by the ADA.
    - root_axis 2y ago
      I think the tension comes from the fact that the term "neurodivergent" doesn't have a specific clinical definition, it's a catch all term that is often used in a colloquial manner that lacks a meaningful diagnosis behind it. Typically, in a context where practical accomodations are being discussed one would want to address specific needs. A person with dyslexia isn't going to need the same accomodations as someone with ADHD, for example
      - donnachangstein 2y ago
        Accommodations usually (but not always) require diagnosis or confirmation by a doctor or other medical professional, and the law affords companies this discretion before granting one, whereas nonspecific 'neurodivergence' is often self-diagnosed. All this aside, if you have e.g. crippling anxiety such that you can't make it through an interview unaided, you probably won't be successful in that job, whatever it is. Whereas a deaf person or someone in a wheelchair would have no long-term problem.
        ksenzee 2y ago
        Social anxiety can be quite specific; fine with small groups but terrified of public speaking, or terrified of new people but fine once you get to know people, or fine with speaking in front of thousands of people but not with the Uber ride to the convention center. I can very easily imagine someone who would do very well on a team of eight people and no client contact but would find the interview itself impossible.
        GreenWatermelon 2y ago
        The way I see it, Autism is more a kin to color-blindness, while crippling anxiety is na actual illness/disorder that should be addressed with therapy. And while someone on the autism spectrum is born that way, anxiety is inflicted. Of course, Genetic temperament plays a role in one's predisposition to anxiety, just like with many physiological illnesses. In a nutshell, Autism is neither an illness or disorder, but merely a "different order", while crippling anxiety is actually a disorder.
qkeast 2y ago
I'm deaf and rely on real-time captions for calls. In an in-person interview scenario, I'm at a huge disadvantage and not able to perform at my best. In a video call, I'm on equal ground. It's not as simple as "requiring people to be able to interact with other people."
- donnachangstein 2y ago
  Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability e.g. providing a deaf person the interview questions on paper or even having an ASL interpreter present. In fact many mention it up front on the screening call before any questions are asked.
  - niccl 2y ago
    > Nearly every large company I've interviewed with would comply with a reasonable accommodation request for a legitimate disability so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability?
    - nradov 2y ago
      That depends on several factors. You should read the official guidance. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reasonable-accommodation-and-undue-hardship-under-ada#reasonable https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-reas...
    - donnachangstein 2y ago
      > so neuro divergence isn't a legitimate disability? It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't, if being able to function well around other humans is a job requirement, as it often is in technical occupations. Why do you think behavioral questions are often asked during interviews? For the same reason someone who requires a wheelchair could not reasonably be expected to be a firefighter, or a blind person be a pilot or bus driver, regardless of any accommodation provided.

PantaloonFlames 2y ago

> Fly where? Many companies don't have offices anymore. Presumably to meet the boss. And maybe the key people on the team.

eikenberry 2y ago
So fly them to multiple destinations? I was hired 1 year ago and interviewed with ~14 people all living in different locations. That could be paired down, but it won't ever reach the single destination that the OP is referring to.
- E_Bfx 2y ago
  Yes but it only one face to face meeting is needed in the process to see if someone is using AI to answer interview. The 13 other interviews can then be online.
  - Imustaskforhelp 2y ago
    this is a great suggestion actually!
- Aurornis 2y ago
  Nobody is seriously suggesting you perform every interview step in person. The suggestion is to consider doing the last interview in person. It could even be with one other person.
sjamaan 2y ago
You can always rent a conference room for an hour or so somewhere in between.

donnachangstein 2y ago

> Classic bigotry. Hiring is all about finding the best candidate. If you find you cannot function sitting in conference room with three other people for an hour, there is a 100% chance there is a better candidate suited for the role, even if his/her technical skills are less than yours. Jobs have soft skill requirements, and there is nothing bigoted about that.

re-thc 2y ago
> If you find you cannot function sitting in conference room with three other people for an hour, there is a 100% chance there is a better candidate suited for the role, even if his/her technical skills are less than yours. This assumes that was the job? What if the job never talks or sits in a room with anyone? > Hiring is all about finding the best candidate. Then what is leet code about?
- motorest 2y ago
  > This assumes that was the job? What if the job never talks or sits in a room with anyone? That's perfectly fine. Some coding jobs also don't require deep knowledge on data structures. Each company and project has its own requirements. This does not reject the value of soft skills and being able to interact with other people. You can also frame this from another perspective. How far should a hiring manager go to accommodate antisocial and straight out toxic people? Does an eggregious backstabber have the right to advance in hiring processes just because others found him unpleasant to work with?
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional.
    - motorest 2y ago
      > Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional. You're complaining about the hypothetical effectiveness of concrete hiring practices. You are not rejecting the value and importance of soft skills. Also, the ability to work under pressure is valuable skill. If you have a candidate that fails to perform when being in a room with someone else, I doubt you can argue that that's your hiring decision when other candidates are able to perform in similar circumstances.

tayo42 2y ago

> Fly where? Many companies don't have offices anymore While i dont agree with the idea we'll be flying anywhere for interviews, havent most companies gone back on remote work. "hybrid" is a benefit now and being in the office is the expectation.

motorest 2y ago

> Ahh... the age old, "just do better" position for neurodivergent people. Classic bigotry. I think you're too eager to throw personal attacks on those who raise valid points that are you feel are uncomfortable to address. You should be aware that engineering is a social activity that requires hard skills. In any project that employs more than one person, you need to be able to interact with others. This means being able to effectively address and interact with others around you. If you give anyone a choice, anyone at all, on who they work with, they will of course favor those who they are able to effectively interact with. This is not bigotry, is it?

ang_cire 2y ago
> they will of course favor those who they are able to effectively interact with. This is not bigotry, is it? If "those who they are able to effectively interact with" ends up meaning only people who look, act, or believe like them, then yes it absolutely is.
- sayamqazi 2y ago
  Adding to your point. Why arent we saying that the "noraml" people are the ones bad at interacting with neurodivergents. Their supposed social skills are so limited that they can only work with people who act and behave like them.
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  That’s an uncharitable interpretation. But if that is what it ends up meaning then i do agree, that’s bigotry. A more charitable interpretation might mean “the candidate is able to clearly explain (through some medium: orally, typing, etc) how their code works, and why they picked that solution. They were also able to correctly answer follow up questions”. If _that_ is what is meant, then that’s not bigotry IMO.
  - ljm 2y ago
    I wouldn't say uncharitable, just that the best-intentioned version is pretty naïve, especially in the current political climate where every effort to bring that kind of inclusivity and open-mindedness to the table is being actively regressed. For everyone here who appreciates the effort to remove unconscious bias from these decisions as much as possible, because they genuinely want to find the most capable person for the job regardless of their personal preferences, there's still a whole world out there where that bias is not only desirable but celebrated.

_blk 2y ago

If you have a really desirable job I wouldn't think twice about a few hours long drive/flight but eventually creativity wins the game for the hiring side. E.g. No offices, no problem: Either you recruit where you already have people or find trustees. I'd be happy to hold remote interview assist in the Colorado Springs (pot. Denver) area in my small 3ppl office if anyone from a remote-only corp doesn't have anyone on-site and wants to give it a shot...

pramsey 2y ago

> Suits were out in tech 30 years ago when I first interviewed. They have only gone more out of style. Fashion doesn't work the way you think it works. Or maybe it works exactly the way they think? Suits are so out, that wearing one is a strong signal of "different thinking" in a way that being casual once was. A colleague of mind would wear a three-piece on "casual Friday", and always showed up to the nines for interviews. Never harmed him, just reinforced his "think different" bona fides.

thruway516 2y ago
You're merely reinforcing their point. Its so out of fashion it would be considered a bold or even edgy choice just as dressing casually once would.