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Does it matter how the data is processed? You're still just saying that while stealing a lot from one person is wrong, stealing only a little but from many peo

Does it matter how the data is processed? You're still just saying that while stealing a lot from one person is wrong, stealing only a little but from many people would be OK. And the people who are stolen from don't agree with you.

AstroBen 2y ago
Is an artist finding inspiration from another's work stealing? Creativity is very rarely building something completely new from nothing at all - it's the end result of inspiration and a merging of ideas Which seems to be exactly what these models are doing Satisfactory the game didn't "steal" from Factorio - they took the idea of an automated factory game from them, brought it into a 3d world instead of 2d, and pulled in some other ideas, perhaps from other games. This is a hell of a lot closer to stealing than an LLM taking 0.001% each from 100000 images to create something new.. and yet no-one would ever call it such It's disturbing because it's automated on an insane scale, not because of a solid legal ground
nh23423fefe 2y ago
You're pretending reading a book and remembering what is written is stealing.
- ptrhvns 2y ago
  That's not what's happening. Using your analogy, you're reading the book, remembering it, and then making N more books (maybe for commercial purposes) by using what you remembered to create something very similar in terms of style, prose, plot, and so on. As a result, the person who you learned from can't get a job writing anymore because their work has been commoditized. Also, they're feeling lost because the work they devoted their lives to is now awash in a sea of similar work.
  - nh23423fefe 2y ago
    So as long as you can point to someone sad, you win? The only valid text makers are humans.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  if I quote it from memory without attribution, it is arguably stealng. Certainly in bad taste to pretend that was my idea. If I type it out from memory on my blog page without permission, it is 100% stealing. These aren't novel situations. We have centuries of case studies, precedent, and cultural osmosis giving us legal and de facto means of what we feel and say is "stealing intellectual property".
  - thedevilslawyer 2y ago
    What bunkum. Stealing is only recent propaganda, and not successful at that. If anything, the act of sharing something is cultural and innate for millennia even [0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      "recent" we in 300 or so years? Yes. And guess why we made copyright to begin with? It became very easy for large companies to copy and mass produce ideas from people who made them. History repeats. It's not like tribes and families also didn't keep secrets to maintain some power or as matter of trade. We call them "trade secrets" now but those go back before recorded history. In addition, consider thar back the we had actual communities, unlike now. Bring those back and we can talk about tearing down copyright.
  - WithinReason 2y ago
    Stable Diffusion and the like is unable to perfectly reproduce an image from the training data, outside of rare exceptions, e.g. it was overrepresented in the training set.

AstroBen 2y ago

Is an artist finding inspiration from another's work stealing? Creativity is very rarely building something completely new from nothing at all - it's the end result of inspiration and a merging of ideas Which seems to be exactly what these models are doing Satisfactory the game didn't "steal" from Factorio - they took the idea of an automated factory game from them, brought it into a 3d world instead of 2d, and pulled in some other ideas, perhaps from other games. This is a hell of a lot closer to stealing than an LLM taking 0.001% each from 100000 images to create something new.. and yet no-one would ever call it such It's disturbing because it's automated on an insane scale, not because of a solid legal ground

nh23423fefe 2y ago

You're pretending reading a book and remembering what is written is stealing.

ptrhvns 2y ago
That's not what's happening. Using your analogy, you're reading the book, remembering it, and then making N more books (maybe for commercial purposes) by using what you remembered to create something very similar in terms of style, prose, plot, and so on. As a result, the person who you learned from can't get a job writing anymore because their work has been commoditized. Also, they're feeling lost because the work they devoted their lives to is now awash in a sea of similar work.
- nh23423fefe 2y ago
  So as long as you can point to someone sad, you win? The only valid text makers are humans.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
if I quote it from memory without attribution, it is arguably stealng. Certainly in bad taste to pretend that was my idea. If I type it out from memory on my blog page without permission, it is 100% stealing. These aren't novel situations. We have centuries of case studies, precedent, and cultural osmosis giving us legal and de facto means of what we feel and say is "stealing intellectual property".
- thedevilslawyer 2y ago
  What bunkum. Stealing is only recent propaganda, and not successful at that. If anything, the act of sharing something is cultural and innate for millennia even [0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    "recent" we in 300 or so years? Yes. And guess why we made copyright to begin with? It became very easy for large companies to copy and mass produce ideas from people who made them. History repeats. It's not like tribes and families also didn't keep secrets to maintain some power or as matter of trade. We call them "trade secrets" now but those go back before recorded history. In addition, consider thar back the we had actual communities, unlike now. Bring those back and we can talk about tearing down copyright.
- WithinReason 2y ago
  Stable Diffusion and the like is unable to perfectly reproduce an image from the training data, outside of rare exceptions, e.g. it was overrepresented in the training set.