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> but I also think hiring someone for [government paperwork] would be the wise choice in most places anyway. I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried founding a busin

> but I also think hiring someone for [government paperwork] would be the wise choice in most places anyway. I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried founding a business or fundraising in any other non-Germany country, but this is an insane thing to say imo. Is this why Germany has no globally relevant software (or hardware tbh) companies founded in the last 40 years? Are we sure we want to be holding up this model as an example of “a good one”?

dinoqqq 2y ago
You probably missed SAP then. > The company is the largest non-American software company by revenue and the world's third-largest publicly traded software company by revenue. As of December 2023, SAP is the largest German company by market capitalization. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP
- codethief 2y ago
  I suppose OP specifically excluded SAP as it was founded more than 40 years ago.
  - fsndz 2y ago
    SAP is kinda of a monopoly no ? The software is bloated and complex to use. The UI is dated but everyone still uses it because it is so embedded into the core arteries of businesses.
    - fakedang 2y ago
      It's not a monopoly if it is hard to migrate from. SAP doesn't go out of its way to prevent you from migrating out of the HANA database. It's just that by the time you need a software like SAP, whatever you're buying becomes business critical and hard to migrate from regardless. And SAP is good enough to handle all kinds of edge case scenarios reasonably strongly. SAP doesn't even engage in monopolistic practices like what Microsoft or Apple do. SAP and Salesforce are pretty much in the same bucket imo. The reason there is no Hubspot for SAP is that most smaller companies don't really need an ERP system.
      - fsndz 2y ago
        true. SAP is more of an entrenched SaaS. Once you have it, the switching costs are too high later on. What an amazing kind of biz. The stickiness is crazy.
- bgnn 2y ago
  Siemens is also huge in software. AUTOSAR alliance is an organization based in Germany defining automotive ECU software architectures. Most automotive SW development is happening in Germany.
- pembrook 2y ago
  SAP predates the personal computer and the rise of the VC model in the 80s. Its a bad sign if you have to go back over 50 years.
  - pcthrowaway 2y ago
    SUSE was founded (checks) 33 years ago if you want something more recent.
- AlchemistCamp 2y ago
  It was founded over 50 years ago. It had already been running for decades before Amazon, Google or Facebook were even founded.
ks2048 2y ago
> I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried founding a business or fundraising in any other non-Germany country, but this is an insane thing to say imo. In the US, people also tell you pay an expensive lawyer to deal with government paperwork.
- whatever1 2y ago
  Don’t forget the accountant. Once you start payroll things get an order of magnitude more complex.
- pembrook 2y ago
  Not at the early stages.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  I may be misunderstanding, is this statement suggesting that the advice to use lawyers in Germany is simply standard op procedure, and not even remotely necessary? As it really isn't necessary in the US, especially with how easy it is to change or update later if it gets to that point. I have incorporated (s-corp), created a couple LLC's and briefly used a sole proprietorship with a DBA filed in my county - this one was by far the most annoying, time consuming, and confusing one. The state filings took maybe 10-15 minutes of filling out straight forward online forms, $1 (at the time for a name search) and $300 to file. Soon after I was the paper owner of a legal corporation (or LLC's). The most complicated part was understanding taxes, but the application of taxes is separate from starting the company (assuming you understand the best tax structure for what you are doing). If anything, an Accountant is way more important imo.
  - ks2048 2y ago
    I don't know much about Germany, but the statement was a response to the threads above, (1) > but I also think hiring someone for [government paperwork] would be the wise choice in most places anyway. (2) > I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried founding a business or fundraising in any other non-Germany country, but this is an insane thing to say imo. My point was that it's not an insane thing in the USA (non-German country) to hire someone for government paperwork.
vaidhy 2y ago
Why should there be a globally relevant software company? How about locally relevant software companies? If it is successful enough to pay for its own expenses and decent income for the employees/founders, it is a good business.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  Because software has enormous fixed costs and low marginal costs, so spreading the fixed costs across more users improves the economics, often by a large factor. It’s not that it’s strictly required, but it’s so beneficial that it’s often chosen.
haileys 2y ago
> Is this why Germany has no globally relevant software (or hardware tbh) companies founded in the last 40 years? Ableton, Native Instruments, SoundCloud, TeamViewer
- gsck 2y ago
  MA Lighting, by far the largest and most dominant lighting console manufacturer. They are the industry standard around the world, no one even comes close.
- youngtaff 2y ago
  SAP

dinoqqq 2y ago

You probably missed SAP then. > The company is the largest non-American software company by revenue and the world's third-largest publicly traded software company by revenue. As of December 2023, SAP is the largest German company by market capitalization. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP

codethief 2y ago
I suppose OP specifically excluded SAP as it was founded more than 40 years ago.
- fsndz 2y ago
  SAP is kinda of a monopoly no ? The software is bloated and complex to use. The UI is dated but everyone still uses it because it is so embedded into the core arteries of businesses.
  - fakedang 2y ago
    It's not a monopoly if it is hard to migrate from. SAP doesn't go out of its way to prevent you from migrating out of the HANA database. It's just that by the time you need a software like SAP, whatever you're buying becomes business critical and hard to migrate from regardless. And SAP is good enough to handle all kinds of edge case scenarios reasonably strongly. SAP doesn't even engage in monopolistic practices like what Microsoft or Apple do. SAP and Salesforce are pretty much in the same bucket imo. The reason there is no Hubspot for SAP is that most smaller companies don't really need an ERP system.
    - fsndz 2y ago
      true. SAP is more of an entrenched SaaS. Once you have it, the switching costs are too high later on. What an amazing kind of biz. The stickiness is crazy.
bgnn 2y ago
Siemens is also huge in software. AUTOSAR alliance is an organization based in Germany defining automotive ECU software architectures. Most automotive SW development is happening in Germany.
pembrook 2y ago
SAP predates the personal computer and the rise of the VC model in the 80s. Its a bad sign if you have to go back over 50 years.
- pcthrowaway 2y ago
  SUSE was founded (checks) 33 years ago if you want something more recent.
AlchemistCamp 2y ago
It was founded over 50 years ago. It had already been running for decades before Amazon, Google or Facebook were even founded.

ks2048 2y ago

> I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried founding a business or fundraising in any other non-Germany country, but this is an insane thing to say imo. In the US, people also tell you pay an expensive lawyer to deal with government paperwork.

whatever1 2y ago
Don’t forget the accountant. Once you start payroll things get an order of magnitude more complex.
pembrook 2y ago
Not at the early stages.
1659447091 2y ago
I may be misunderstanding, is this statement suggesting that the advice to use lawyers in Germany is simply standard op procedure, and not even remotely necessary? As it really isn't necessary in the US, especially with how easy it is to change or update later if it gets to that point. I have incorporated (s-corp), created a couple LLC's and briefly used a sole proprietorship with a DBA filed in my county - this one was by far the most annoying, time consuming, and confusing one. The state filings took maybe 10-15 minutes of filling out straight forward online forms, $1 (at the time for a name search) and $300 to file. Soon after I was the paper owner of a legal corporation (or LLC's). The most complicated part was understanding taxes, but the application of taxes is separate from starting the company (assuming you understand the best tax structure for what you are doing). If anything, an Accountant is way more important imo.
- ks2048 2y ago
  I don't know much about Germany, but the statement was a response to the threads above, (1) > but I also think hiring someone for [government paperwork] would be the wise choice in most places anyway. (2) > I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried founding a business or fundraising in any other non-Germany country, but this is an insane thing to say imo. My point was that it's not an insane thing in the USA (non-German country) to hire someone for government paperwork.

vaidhy 2y ago

Why should there be a globally relevant software company? How about locally relevant software companies? If it is successful enough to pay for its own expenses and decent income for the employees/founders, it is a good business.

sokoloff 2y ago
Because software has enormous fixed costs and low marginal costs, so spreading the fixed costs across more users improves the economics, often by a large factor. It’s not that it’s strictly required, but it’s so beneficial that it’s often chosen.

haileys 2y ago

> Is this why Germany has no globally relevant software (or hardware tbh) companies founded in the last 40 years? Ableton, Native Instruments, SoundCloud, TeamViewer

gsck 2y ago
MA Lighting, by far the largest and most dominant lighting console manufacturer. They are the industry standard around the world, no one even comes close.
youngtaff 2y ago
SAP