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Awesome. Had a feeling this was going to be a smalltalk thing. Seems to involve/extend moose[1] among other things. Judging from the comments and such intere

Awesome. Had a feeling this was going to be a smalltalk thing. Seems to involve/extend moose[1] among other things. Judging from the comments and such interesting projects languishing in obscurity.. smalltalk / pharo[2] still has a PR problem even though I think a lot of people are kind of fascinated by the ideas of image-based persistence[3]. The typical easy comparisons to VMs, IDEs, and notebooks all seem to fail to capture an important part of the essence. Hence the need for new vocabulary like "moldable development" and "contextual micro tools" which is all part of the appeal and part of the problem. It really is a different kind of thing. I (still) hope it all catches on a bit more but my sense is that it probably needs to present itself as a bit less academic. Compare the moose touting of "meta-meta-modeling" with something like gritql[4], which focuses more on use-cases, and seems to be gaining in popularity rather than remaining obscure. Seems like maybe it's time for a change in tactics to bring in a wider audience. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose_(analysis) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose_(analysis) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharo [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persistence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Image-based_persiste... [4] https://github.com/getgrit/gritql https://github.com/getgrit/gritql

theamk 2y ago
When I visit that gritql link, the first line of "Usage" already tells me a lot: (1) what problems can it solve, (2) how do I use it and (3) what is entry threshold. This makes it a very cool tool which I am will be using in the future. That's for telling me about it! (In case you wonder, the answers I saw are: (1) semantics-aware code search/replace with no IDE requirement; or maybe better "grep" with no false positives (2) write queries on command line or in file, and pass them to tool; (3) very low: install the binary, there no need to "import" or "setup project" or any things like those). Compared to that into, Glamorous Toolkit presets itself much worse. Here were my thoughts when I opened the website: It seems to be some sort of data explorer tool, but it's also kinda weird. For example, the API explorer clearly shows post-processed data, so it's not actually exploring Github API, but rather some sort of binding to it (GhRepo according to the title).. so what's the use of API explorer which requires bindings to be written first? DevOps explorer seems interesting, but I don't care about Jenkins, so what I really want to see is how hard is it to teach it about new system. Maybe it's in the videos, but I am not going to watch long videos unless I am already interested in the tool. Maybe if I click around? Nope, and the blog is not very helpful too... In fact, the comments for the post were much more informative than the website, I love HN! So, apparently the answers are (1) it can visualize the data, if I am willing to learn smalltalk (2) it's smalltalk, so you create smalltalk classes, and they become stuck in the "image" that you cannot easily share with others nor use with any existing workflows and (3) it's probably a few hours of youtube (the first video alone is 45 minutes) + experimenting before I can get any useful output. I don't see it ever catching at all, sorry. Granted, it seems like a general problem with Smalltalk: the collaboration story is bad. It seems every Smalltalk user lives in their own little world, and sharing stuff with other people is an afterthought, at best. Just compare gritql's and GT's homepage: one starts with 3 copy-pasteable commands which would immediately show something cool, another starts with mysterious "Download" button followed by 45 minute video.
- g00z 2y ago
  The GT people don't like boxing what it is into any specific category. Which isn't great for new users but also makes sense when you use it. Because it's really not any one thing other than an environment that is built from the ground up for building highly explainable systems, including itself. Think about it like a "meta-tool", or a tool for building tools. Similar to how an operating system is a piece of software used for writing other pieces of software easier. So naturally this type of workflow lends itself to data analysis. However it's no less applicable in building p2p networks, or working with codebases in other languages. Regarding sharing code, it's actually really straight forward. Your classes aren't stuck in images, but are normally stored as normal plaintext files and committed into git. The library story is arguable better than in most other languages, because of how flexible smalltalk is.
- tudorgirba 2y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. A question: Why would you say that the Download button is mysterious? I think I might have missed the issue. Still we now changed the "Download" button to "Get started" that links to a page with more concrete steps. Is this improving the situation from your point of view? The worry about the enhancements being trapped is interesting. All of GT sources are in Git and extensions can be packaged next to your own project. We will try to address it explicitly in the main page. Would you say that a Frequently Asked Questions section would help with this?
tudorgirba 2y ago
Thank you for the comments! Moldable Development is different from programming in Smalltalk. It's not a way of advertising Smalltalk, it's a new way of programming :) Moose indeed came from academia and was focused on various kinds of analyses. Glamorous Toolkit does include a small part of it, but it is a whole environment. Thank you for the suggestion related to use cases. Today, people tend to look for specific tools that can be used out of the box for a specific set of problem. Something like gritql fits in that expectation well. The challenge we face is that Moldable Development is generic and it is applicable in a wide range of scenarios. For example, the video on the front page tries to provide an idea of classes of use cases. The GT book offers many more such case studies. All of these are accommodated uniformly in the same environment with small energy. This is novel and requires awareness which leads to a catch-22 problem. We try to address this also coming from the larger problem at https://moldabledevelopment.com https://moldabledevelopment.com, including a new book I am writing with Simon Wardley. We would be interested in suggestions for how to communicate it better.
- koliber 2y ago
  Whenever you want to market something that has many different uses, it’s important to focus. Pick one of those uses, and focus relentlessly in marketing that. If people are interested, they will come and if the tool will deliver on the promise they will use it. Over time they will notice other uses and a flywheel effect should take over.
- mapcars 2y ago
  These ideas are great, but I don't understand how the whole Smalltalk approach can fit into modern development environments of multiple engineers working on a project, client-server architectures, or even large codebases - TDD helps, but high level of dynamism without typechecking can't be reliable in my experience. The ability to fix things on the fly and have the whole system as your ide/debugger is nice, but that's not very practical for the end user.
  - tudorgirba 2y ago
    Interesting question. The primary goal of Glamorous Toolkit is not to be a technology for expressing systems in. Its purpose is to be an environment with which to work with systems written in various technologies. The differentiator to other environments is that here you can create contextual experiences (made out of micro tools) while you develop. That said, of course, the first language targeted is the main language in which the environment is built: Smalltalk. And you can build interesting systems with Smalltalk today. The end user does not have to see the development tools. You can just fine create web applications. Collaboration is handled through Git (all sources of GT are on GitHub). You mention TDD. Moldable Development is complementary and can be quite interesting to explore :). And more importantly, you can use GT to employ Moldable Development in your system development.

theamk 2y ago

When I visit that gritql link, the first line of "Usage" already tells me a lot: (1) what problems can it solve, (2) how do I use it and (3) what is entry threshold. This makes it a very cool tool which I am will be using in the future. That's for telling me about it! (In case you wonder, the answers I saw are: (1) semantics-aware code search/replace with no IDE requirement; or maybe better "grep" with no false positives (2) write queries on command line or in file, and pass them to tool; (3) very low: install the binary, there no need to "import" or "setup project" or any things like those). Compared to that into, Glamorous Toolkit presets itself much worse. Here were my thoughts when I opened the website: It seems to be some sort of data explorer tool, but it's also kinda weird. For example, the API explorer clearly shows post-processed data, so it's not actually exploring Github API, but rather some sort of binding to it (GhRepo according to the title).. so what's the use of API explorer which requires bindings to be written first? DevOps explorer seems interesting, but I don't care about Jenkins, so what I really want to see is how hard is it to teach it about new system. Maybe it's in the videos, but I am not going to watch long videos unless I am already interested in the tool. Maybe if I click around? Nope, and the blog is not very helpful too... In fact, the comments for the post were much more informative than the website, I love HN! So, apparently the answers are (1) it can visualize the data, if I am willing to learn smalltalk (2) it's smalltalk, so you create smalltalk classes, and they become stuck in the "image" that you cannot easily share with others nor use with any existing workflows and (3) it's probably a few hours of youtube (the first video alone is 45 minutes) + experimenting before I can get any useful output. I don't see it ever catching at all, sorry. Granted, it seems like a general problem with Smalltalk: the collaboration story is bad. It seems every Smalltalk user lives in their own little world, and sharing stuff with other people is an afterthought, at best. Just compare gritql's and GT's homepage: one starts with 3 copy-pasteable commands which would immediately show something cool, another starts with mysterious "Download" button followed by 45 minute video.

g00z 2y ago
The GT people don't like boxing what it is into any specific category. Which isn't great for new users but also makes sense when you use it. Because it's really not any one thing other than an environment that is built from the ground up for building highly explainable systems, including itself. Think about it like a "meta-tool", or a tool for building tools. Similar to how an operating system is a piece of software used for writing other pieces of software easier. So naturally this type of workflow lends itself to data analysis. However it's no less applicable in building p2p networks, or working with codebases in other languages. Regarding sharing code, it's actually really straight forward. Your classes aren't stuck in images, but are normally stored as normal plaintext files and committed into git. The library story is arguable better than in most other languages, because of how flexible smalltalk is.
tudorgirba 2y ago
Thanks for the feedback. A question: Why would you say that the Download button is mysterious? I think I might have missed the issue. Still we now changed the "Download" button to "Get started" that links to a page with more concrete steps. Is this improving the situation from your point of view? The worry about the enhancements being trapped is interesting. All of GT sources are in Git and extensions can be packaged next to your own project. We will try to address it explicitly in the main page. Would you say that a Frequently Asked Questions section would help with this?

tudorgirba 2y ago

Thank you for the comments! Moldable Development is different from programming in Smalltalk. It's not a way of advertising Smalltalk, it's a new way of programming :) Moose indeed came from academia and was focused on various kinds of analyses. Glamorous Toolkit does include a small part of it, but it is a whole environment. Thank you for the suggestion related to use cases. Today, people tend to look for specific tools that can be used out of the box for a specific set of problem. Something like gritql fits in that expectation well. The challenge we face is that Moldable Development is generic and it is applicable in a wide range of scenarios. For example, the video on the front page tries to provide an idea of classes of use cases. The GT book offers many more such case studies. All of these are accommodated uniformly in the same environment with small energy. This is novel and requires awareness which leads to a catch-22 problem. We try to address this also coming from the larger problem at https://moldabledevelopment.com https://moldabledevelopment.com, including a new book I am writing with Simon Wardley. We would be interested in suggestions for how to communicate it better.

koliber 2y ago
Whenever you want to market something that has many different uses, it’s important to focus. Pick one of those uses, and focus relentlessly in marketing that. If people are interested, they will come and if the tool will deliver on the promise they will use it. Over time they will notice other uses and a flywheel effect should take over.
mapcars 2y ago
These ideas are great, but I don't understand how the whole Smalltalk approach can fit into modern development environments of multiple engineers working on a project, client-server architectures, or even large codebases - TDD helps, but high level of dynamism without typechecking can't be reliable in my experience. The ability to fix things on the fly and have the whole system as your ide/debugger is nice, but that's not very practical for the end user.
- tudorgirba 2y ago
  Interesting question. The primary goal of Glamorous Toolkit is not to be a technology for expressing systems in. Its purpose is to be an environment with which to work with systems written in various technologies. The differentiator to other environments is that here you can create contextual experiences (made out of micro tools) while you develop. That said, of course, the first language targeted is the main language in which the environment is built: Smalltalk. And you can build interesting systems with Smalltalk today. The end user does not have to see the development tools. You can just fine create web applications. Collaboration is handled through Git (all sources of GT are on GitHub). You mention TDD. Moldable Development is complementary and can be quite interesting to explore :). And more importantly, you can use GT to employ Moldable Development in your system development.