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So we are talking about cheap chains, not middle class places. These are just slightly glorified fast food. In Europe, apart from TGI Fridays, they were never a

So we are talking about cheap chains, not middle class places. These are just slightly glorified fast food. In Europe, apart from TGI Fridays, they were never a thing. And they were seen as just simply fast food. If they vanished, few people will mention. If these are middle class they are for well, "statistical middle", i.e. working poor. Proper restaurants should be small businesses and family owned and grow their client base over generations, then they are pretty much bulletproof against all kinds of economic hardships.

jghn 2y ago
> These are just slightly glorified fast food A lot of them have started to directly compete against fast food. Applebees for instance offers a deal that's about the same price as a McDonalds meal.
zem 2y ago
yeah, having grown up outside the US I kept wondering why exactly there aren't local, independent restaurants in that price point. do the economics just not work out over here due to disproportionately higher rent and labour costs?
- anovikov 2y ago
  My bet is it that's due to people's obsession with brands. They just see "noname" thing as inherently less valuable than a branded one, so family-owned places stay invisible, looked down upon.
- ghaff 2y ago
  I think it depends where you are. When I worked in Boston, going to somewhere like Chinatown was common. No one I knew would have gone to a chain restaurant for lunch.
  - zem 2y ago
    true in the SF bay area too, but reading the article made me think that was an aberration. maybe the mom and pop restaurants only survive in big cities. or maybe the article was just over focused on the chains and ignoring the smaller restaurants.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      I think it depends. I live in basically an exurban area about 50 miles west of Boston. I'm not sure I'd say there are a huge number of places, but there is definitely a decent population of local midrange restaurants. Certainly you get into a more geuinely rural area and your options of all sorts shrink.
DoingIsLearning 2y ago
> In Europe, apart from TGI Fridays, they were never a thing. And they were seen as just simply fast food. The discussion and the article is US specific, but as general point 'Europe' is a big generalization akin to 'Africa' or 'Asia'. These places are too heterogenous for blanket statements. As a point of anecdata between around the 1960's and early 2000's in most mediterranean countries, middle class would indeed sit down for lunch in nearby restaurants for an affordable lunch. Many of these places would serves as cafes during the day and affordable bistro at lunch. Most either ramped up prices or went bust. It is either grab a coffee and go or white cloth restaurant prices. The middle ground business model has indeed vanished or really downgraded their offering, in most countries around the mediterranean.
timewizard 2y ago
> These are just slightly glorified fast food. In Europe, In my opinion it's a drinking culture thing. These places also served alcohol which is more tightly distributed than it would be in Europe. There's less of a reason for them to exist there. I also think that's the reason for their decline. The day drinking crowd simply aged out of the business lunch segment. It was inevitable. COVID probably accelerated it some but the writing was on the wall. > Proper restaurants Yea, which is why I think it's about the drinks, these restaurants all used a common major supplier (Sysco) that makes restaurant ready foods that are mostly just microwave and serve. It was never about the quality of the food.
- anovikov 2y ago
  Indeed, in Europe it's totally normal to drink during the day, or well, near constantly. Probably a lot more so than in the US.
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    I think that's changed over recent decades, millennials and later seem much more health conscious than previous generations.
    - anovikov 2y ago
      Why? Their lives seem to be also a lot more useless than those of previous generations. Why care about them and not allow oneself little pleasures? As if some great achievements were waiting for them with only booze getting in the way. Is it just simply because they are a lot more neurotic because of all that shit on the internet?
  - dagw 2y ago
    Indeed, in Europe... In some parts of Europe. In other parts it is very much frowned upon. Then there is the generational shift, even in countries where it used to be the norm to drink at lunch, people under 30-40 just aren't drinking like that any more, and might very well frown upon people that do.
orthoxerox 2y ago
I think the difference is that Americans expect to be able to eat out several days a week. This means that an American middle-class restaurant must be cheaper than a European middle-class restaurant, which you go to once a month.
dagw 2y ago
In Europe, apart from TGI Fridays, they were never a thing. And they were seen as just simply fast food. I remember when the first TGI Fridays opened in my country (early 90s) and it was definitely seen as a pretty fancy 'foreign' restaurant, the sort of place you could definitely fo for special occasions or to celebrate something.

jghn 2y ago

> These are just slightly glorified fast food A lot of them have started to directly compete against fast food. Applebees for instance offers a deal that's about the same price as a McDonalds meal.

zem 2y ago

yeah, having grown up outside the US I kept wondering why exactly there aren't local, independent restaurants in that price point. do the economics just not work out over here due to disproportionately higher rent and labour costs?

anovikov 2y ago
My bet is it that's due to people's obsession with brands. They just see "noname" thing as inherently less valuable than a branded one, so family-owned places stay invisible, looked down upon.
ghaff 2y ago
I think it depends where you are. When I worked in Boston, going to somewhere like Chinatown was common. No one I knew would have gone to a chain restaurant for lunch.
- zem 2y ago
  true in the SF bay area too, but reading the article made me think that was an aberration. maybe the mom and pop restaurants only survive in big cities. or maybe the article was just over focused on the chains and ignoring the smaller restaurants.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I think it depends. I live in basically an exurban area about 50 miles west of Boston. I'm not sure I'd say there are a huge number of places, but there is definitely a decent population of local midrange restaurants. Certainly you get into a more geuinely rural area and your options of all sorts shrink.

DoingIsLearning 2y ago

> In Europe, apart from TGI Fridays, they were never a thing. And they were seen as just simply fast food. The discussion and the article is US specific, but as general point 'Europe' is a big generalization akin to 'Africa' or 'Asia'. These places are too heterogenous for blanket statements. As a point of anecdata between around the 1960's and early 2000's in most mediterranean countries, middle class would indeed sit down for lunch in nearby restaurants for an affordable lunch. Many of these places would serves as cafes during the day and affordable bistro at lunch. Most either ramped up prices or went bust. It is either grab a coffee and go or white cloth restaurant prices. The middle ground business model has indeed vanished or really downgraded their offering, in most countries around the mediterranean.

timewizard 2y ago

> These are just slightly glorified fast food. In Europe, In my opinion it's a drinking culture thing. These places also served alcohol which is more tightly distributed than it would be in Europe. There's less of a reason for them to exist there. I also think that's the reason for their decline. The day drinking crowd simply aged out of the business lunch segment. It was inevitable. COVID probably accelerated it some but the writing was on the wall. > Proper restaurants Yea, which is why I think it's about the drinks, these restaurants all used a common major supplier (Sysco) that makes restaurant ready foods that are mostly just microwave and serve. It was never about the quality of the food.

anovikov 2y ago
Indeed, in Europe it's totally normal to drink during the day, or well, near constantly. Probably a lot more so than in the US.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  I think that's changed over recent decades, millennials and later seem much more health conscious than previous generations.
  - anovikov 2y ago
    Why? Their lives seem to be also a lot more useless than those of previous generations. Why care about them and not allow oneself little pleasures? As if some great achievements were waiting for them with only booze getting in the way. Is it just simply because they are a lot more neurotic because of all that shit on the internet?
- dagw 2y ago
  Indeed, in Europe... In some parts of Europe. In other parts it is very much frowned upon. Then there is the generational shift, even in countries where it used to be the norm to drink at lunch, people under 30-40 just aren't drinking like that any more, and might very well frown upon people that do.

orthoxerox 2y ago

I think the difference is that Americans expect to be able to eat out several days a week. This means that an American middle-class restaurant must be cheaper than a European middle-class restaurant, which you go to once a month.

dagw 2y ago

In Europe, apart from TGI Fridays, they were never a thing. And they were seen as just simply fast food. I remember when the first TGI Fridays opened in my country (early 90s) and it was definitely seen as a pretty fancy 'foreign' restaurant, the sort of place you could definitely fo for special occasions or to celebrate something.