5 ms·

> People who sell things need ways to find buyers. No, you've got that backwards. People who sell things should have a way of announcing their product to the w

by imiric 2y ago

> People who sell things need ways to find buyers. No, you've got that backwards. People who sell things should have a way of announcing their product to the world. Buyers who are interested in that type of product should be the ones seeking out the companies, not the other way around. The current approach of companies pushing their products to everyone is how we got to the mess we are in today. Companies will cheat, lie, and break every law in existence in order to make more money. Laws need to be made in order for companies to stop abusing people. You know what worked well? Product catalogs. Companies buy ad space in specific print or digital media. Consumers can consult that media whenever they want to purchase a specific product. This is what ecommerce sites should be. Give the consumer the tools to search for specific product types, brands, specifications, etc.; get rid of fake reviews and only show honest reviews from verified purchases and vetted reviewers, and there you go. Consumers can discover products, and companies can advertise. This, of course, is only wishful thinking, since companies would rather continue to lie, cheat, and steal, as that's how the big bucks are made. I honestly find it disturbing that with all of humanity's progress and all the brilliant technology we've invented, all of our communication channels are corrupted by companies who want to make us buy stuff, and by propaganda from agencies that want to make us think or act a certain way. Like holy shit, people, is this really the best we can do? It's exhausting having to constantly fight against being manipulated or exploited.

beambot 2y ago
Product catalogs are advertising... The Sears catalog was full of products made by other companies, and Sears paid a ton of money to get those catalogs to as many people as possible
- PebblesRox 2y ago
  I think the point is that they're opt-in advertising. You didn't pick up a book and find pages from the Sears catalog interspersed with the pages you were trying to read. You picked up the Sears catalog when you were considering a purchase and wanted to see what was available.
  - beambot 2y ago
    When you visit a ad-supported news website, you're opting in too... No one is forcing you to use that website versus it's ad-free subscription alternatives, it's just that most people have decided they'd prefer the former
    - wat10000 2y ago
      The difference is that a catalog is advertising that the viewer actually wants to see. Ads on a news site are ads that the viewer merely tolerates because they go with the thing they want to see.
  - what 2y ago
    I get various catalogs/flyers/etc interspersed with my physical mail. They just send it to me, I never opted in.
    - aezart 2y ago
      Bulk mail should be banned, yeah.
- exac 2y ago
  I think everyone knows that, but the distinction is that the catalog is "pull" in the sense that if you decide to keep your catalog, the advertising is inside the catalog, and you have to physically retrieve your catalog and open it to find what you're looking for (when you're looking for it), instead of the "push" method of running advertisements in every news article and on every bus.
  - jasode 2y ago
    >I think everyone knows that, but the distinction is [...] The discussion got muddied because in this subthread, it morphed from "What if we made _all_ advertising illegal?" (original article's exact words) ... to gp's (imiric) less restrictive example of "acceptable" advertising such as "product catalogs". So when the person crafting a reply is using the article author's absolutist position of no ads, the distinction doesn't matter.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      I wouldn't call a product catalog advertising, unless I'm forced to read it or receive it without asking. Otherwise it's my own choice to read about the products, which clearly isn't advertising.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    This metaphor seems a little tortured to me. If print media delivered to your door is considered "pull" because you have to open it, then i think so is instagram because you have to open the app.
    - quacker 2y ago
      But when I go to Instagram, I go to look at my friends posts, or at whoever I follow. I don’t go to look at products/ads. If I open a product catalog, I do that to purposefully look at products.
  - kodt 2y ago
    You forget that people used to get spammed with catalogs, and you could opt-out of them with the postal service because it was such a problem. Receiving too many catalogs or magazines is absolutely a negative form of advertising, even though it is less of an issue today.
eduction 2y ago
> The current approach of companies pushing their products to everyone is how we got to the mess we are in today. The most prosperous society ever known to man, a veritable wonderland of consumer choice and entrepreneurial opportunity that draws people from all over the world to study visit and move here. What a mess. So we have some annoying advertising. Small price.
- imiric 2y ago
  > So we have some annoying advertising. Small price. Ha. Tell that to the millions of victims from false advertising of Big Tobacco and Big Pharma. That prosperous society and veritable wonderland is not looking so great these days. Perhaps the fact that the tools built for psychologically manipulating people into buying things can also be used to manipulate people into thinking and acting a certain way could be related to your current situation? Maybe those tools shouldn't have been available to everyone, including your political adversaries? But hey, glad you're enjoying it over there.
  - bluebarbet 2y ago
    The snark padding is a waste of screen pixels and undermines your point.
  - vogelke 2y ago
    > millions of victims from false advertising of Big Tobacco People have known that smoking is bad for your health for around 400 years. You can't fix stupid, not even by making advertising illegal.
- ansmithz42 2y ago
  Having lived overseas, the US isn't a "veritable wonderland of consumer choice". There are 5 grocery store chains, for the great majority of the country there is one way to travel: car. At the store (Kroger), I can buy 2 kinds of salt on the shelves. Where is the "veritable choice"? It has been told in the advertising but the reality is very limited.
  - 2y ago
corny 2y ago
And we could make those catalogs more appealing to the general public by inserting a lot of exclusive content like news, essays, or short stories. I basically agree with the spirit of what you're saying but the line is not clear.
- tremon 2y ago
  The appeal of a catalog is to interest a prospective buyer, not the general public. Once you start targeting the general public, you run into the issues the GP has identified.
liendolucas 2y ago
> I honestly find it disturbing that with all of humanity's progress and all the brilliant technology we've invented, all of our communication channels are corrupted by... Honestly, you couldn't have said that any better. I always think exactly about that. Where we are today, the technology that we have at our disposal, and yet this whole machinery working 24hs non-stop to put these consumption ideas on our heads, cheap propaganda and useless stuff to manipulate us like puppets. Really disgusting.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pessimizer 2y ago
> Buyers who are interested in that type of product should be the ones seeking out the companies, not the other way around. People are not born with a knowledge of all of the products on the market, and the current price ranges for them.
- nickburns 2y ago
  And that's—a problem somehow shared by someone who doesn't want to be advertised to?
  - SideQuark 2y ago
    One person's desire for ignorance should not force that on everyone. Don't want an add supported service? Don't use it. Don't want ads on TV? Don't watch it. Don't want ads on others property? Let them control the look of your property. Lots of people like ads because it's how they discover movies, restaurants, better financial help, better doctors, new hobbies, and a world they'd not have found otherwise.
    - nickburns 2y ago
      One person's 'desire' for what now?
amelius 2y ago
Bring back Yellow Pages.
akoboldfrying 2y ago
> all of our communication channels are corrupted by companies who want to make us buy stuff This is simply not true. You can buy or rent a server right now, run any kind of communication software on it that you want, and use that to communicate with anyone anywhere in the world, 100% ad-free. There are even pre-existing software stacks, like Mastodon, that make setting this up trivial. I honestly find it disturbing that you don't appear to realise that you are asking for control over someone else's communication platform.
refurb 2y ago
You keep referring to companies, but companies don't make decisions, people do. So your problem with advertising is really a problem with people, with human nature. The truth is that whatever system you impose (with force no doubt!) would be optimized by the humans who exist in it.
therealdrag0 2y ago
So your one rule is “money shouldn’t change hands” and your one solution is “product catalogs”???
zestyping 2y ago
I do think you're on to something. What if we took the approach of creating a clear legal distinction between advertising companies and non-advertising companies? For example, if you want to be an advertising company, there are limits on what and how you can publish (such as having to use pull instead of push channels), and you don't get to also try to be a product or service company. If you want to be a non-advertising company, then you can't publish advertising. This seems effective and also a much easier scenario to envision for those who find legal restrictions on speech to be unpalatable or inconceivable. It is actually not that outlandish at all; rather it's well within the bounds of what we already do. We already categorize companies by function and apply all kinds of different rules (restrictions on where and when and how they can operate, requirements for licensing and registration, environmental standards, liability standards, taxation rules) to companies based on what they produce or what purpose they serve, and we already accept that doing so has societal benefits. There is also plenty of precedent for regulations that discourage cross-category operations precisely to simplify enforcement and manage risk. Healthcare providers are separated from payers; drugs cannot also be dietary supplements; legal businesses can't combine with non-law businesses; and so on. Even if cross-category operations aren't completely banned, the rules create friction and deterrence that still has important effects.

by imiric 2y ago

beambot 2y ago

Product catalogs are advertising... The Sears catalog was full of products made by other companies, and Sears paid a ton of money to get those catalogs to as many people as possible

PebblesRox 2y ago
I think the point is that they're opt-in advertising. You didn't pick up a book and find pages from the Sears catalog interspersed with the pages you were trying to read. You picked up the Sears catalog when you were considering a purchase and wanted to see what was available.
- beambot 2y ago
  When you visit a ad-supported news website, you're opting in too... No one is forcing you to use that website versus it's ad-free subscription alternatives, it's just that most people have decided they'd prefer the former
  - wat10000 2y ago
    The difference is that a catalog is advertising that the viewer actually wants to see. Ads on a news site are ads that the viewer merely tolerates because they go with the thing they want to see.
- what 2y ago
  I get various catalogs/flyers/etc interspersed with my physical mail. They just send it to me, I never opted in.
  - aezart 2y ago
    Bulk mail should be banned, yeah.
exac 2y ago
I think everyone knows that, but the distinction is that the catalog is "pull" in the sense that if you decide to keep your catalog, the advertising is inside the catalog, and you have to physically retrieve your catalog and open it to find what you're looking for (when you're looking for it), instead of the "push" method of running advertisements in every news article and on every bus.
- jasode 2y ago
  >I think everyone knows that, but the distinction is [...] The discussion got muddied because in this subthread, it morphed from "What if we made _all_ advertising illegal?" (original article's exact words) ... to gp's (imiric) less restrictive example of "acceptable" advertising such as "product catalogs". So when the person crafting a reply is using the article author's absolutist position of no ads, the distinction doesn't matter.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    I wouldn't call a product catalog advertising, unless I'm forced to read it or receive it without asking. Otherwise it's my own choice to read about the products, which clearly isn't advertising.
- bawolff 2y ago
  This metaphor seems a little tortured to me. If print media delivered to your door is considered "pull" because you have to open it, then i think so is instagram because you have to open the app.
  - quacker 2y ago
    But when I go to Instagram, I go to look at my friends posts, or at whoever I follow. I don’t go to look at products/ads. If I open a product catalog, I do that to purposefully look at products.
- kodt 2y ago
  You forget that people used to get spammed with catalogs, and you could opt-out of them with the postal service because it was such a problem. Receiving too many catalogs or magazines is absolutely a negative form of advertising, even though it is less of an issue today.

eduction 2y ago

> The current approach of companies pushing their products to everyone is how we got to the mess we are in today. The most prosperous society ever known to man, a veritable wonderland of consumer choice and entrepreneurial opportunity that draws people from all over the world to study visit and move here. What a mess. So we have some annoying advertising. Small price.

imiric 2y ago
> So we have some annoying advertising. Small price. Ha. Tell that to the millions of victims from false advertising of Big Tobacco and Big Pharma. That prosperous society and veritable wonderland is not looking so great these days. Perhaps the fact that the tools built for psychologically manipulating people into buying things can also be used to manipulate people into thinking and acting a certain way could be related to your current situation? Maybe those tools shouldn't have been available to everyone, including your political adversaries? But hey, glad you're enjoying it over there.
- bluebarbet 2y ago
  The snark padding is a waste of screen pixels and undermines your point.
- vogelke 2y ago
  > millions of victims from false advertising of Big Tobacco People have known that smoking is bad for your health for around 400 years. You can't fix stupid, not even by making advertising illegal.
ansmithz42 2y ago
Having lived overseas, the US isn't a "veritable wonderland of consumer choice". There are 5 grocery store chains, for the great majority of the country there is one way to travel: car. At the store (Kroger), I can buy 2 kinds of salt on the shelves. Where is the "veritable choice"? It has been told in the advertising but the reality is very limited.
- 2y ago

corny 2y ago

And we could make those catalogs more appealing to the general public by inserting a lot of exclusive content like news, essays, or short stories. I basically agree with the spirit of what you're saying but the line is not clear.

tremon 2y ago
The appeal of a catalog is to interest a prospective buyer, not the general public. Once you start targeting the general public, you run into the issues the GP has identified.

liendolucas 2y ago

> I honestly find it disturbing that with all of humanity's progress and all the brilliant technology we've invented, all of our communication channels are corrupted by... Honestly, you couldn't have said that any better. I always think exactly about that. Where we are today, the technology that we have at our disposal, and yet this whole machinery working 24hs non-stop to put these consumption ideas on our heads, cheap propaganda and useless stuff to manipulate us like puppets. Really disgusting.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pessimizer 2y ago

> Buyers who are interested in that type of product should be the ones seeking out the companies, not the other way around. People are not born with a knowledge of all of the products on the market, and the current price ranges for them.

nickburns 2y ago
And that's—a problem somehow shared by someone who doesn't want to be advertised to?
- SideQuark 2y ago
  One person's desire for ignorance should not force that on everyone. Don't want an add supported service? Don't use it. Don't want ads on TV? Don't watch it. Don't want ads on others property? Let them control the look of your property. Lots of people like ads because it's how they discover movies, restaurants, better financial help, better doctors, new hobbies, and a world they'd not have found otherwise.
  - nickburns 2y ago
    One person's 'desire' for what now?

amelius 2y ago

Bring back Yellow Pages.

akoboldfrying 2y ago

> all of our communication channels are corrupted by companies who want to make us buy stuff This is simply not true. You can buy or rent a server right now, run any kind of communication software on it that you want, and use that to communicate with anyone anywhere in the world, 100% ad-free. There are even pre-existing software stacks, like Mastodon, that make setting this up trivial. I honestly find it disturbing that you don't appear to realise that you are asking for control over someone else's communication platform.

refurb 2y ago

You keep referring to companies, but companies don't make decisions, people do. So your problem with advertising is really a problem with people, with human nature. The truth is that whatever system you impose (with force no doubt!) would be optimized by the humans who exist in it.

therealdrag0 2y ago

So your one rule is “money shouldn’t change hands” and your one solution is “product catalogs”???

zestyping 2y ago

I do think you're on to something. What if we took the approach of creating a clear legal distinction between advertising companies and non-advertising companies? For example, if you want to be an advertising company, there are limits on what and how you can publish (such as having to use pull instead of push channels), and you don't get to also try to be a product or service company. If you want to be a non-advertising company, then you can't publish advertising. This seems effective and also a much easier scenario to envision for those who find legal restrictions on speech to be unpalatable or inconceivable. It is actually not that outlandish at all; rather it's well within the bounds of what we already do. We already categorize companies by function and apply all kinds of different rules (restrictions on where and when and how they can operate, requirements for licensing and registration, environmental standards, liability standards, taxation rules) to companies based on what they produce or what purpose they serve, and we already accept that doing so has societal benefits. There is also plenty of precedent for regulations that discourage cross-category operations precisely to simplify enforcement and manage risk. Healthcare providers are separated from payers; drugs cannot also be dietary supplements; legal businesses can't combine with non-law businesses; and so on. Even if cross-category operations aren't completely banned, the rules create friction and deterrence that still has important effects.