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Ayn Rand herself was on social security too fwiw. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social

Ayn Rand herself was on social security too fwiw. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/

dmitrygr 2y ago
"In her later years"....well, yeah! I will structure my finances that way too. I get money stolen from me yearly by force for "SS TAX", and i surely plan to get every cent back out of it that i can. I will not get even 10% back, but that is better than 0
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  This is not how it works. Did you ever use the streets in front of your house? Ever went to a public park? Ever relied on police to protect your property? Ever needed the help of public health services? Firefighters? It's funny that you get money stole from you (while you certainly use a ton on infrastructure society provides), but never once considered leaving it behind and go live as a hunter gatherer in some remote place. After all, you are posting here.
  - grandempire 2y ago
    How much of the budget is police, parks, and roads? When the budget is questioned the response is always the most popular examples and ignore everything else. When was the last time you used a sociology research grant? Or an ICBM?
    - jeltz 2y ago
      The reason we pay for ICMBs is to prevent warmongers like Putin from invading countries which would be bad for the whole global economy. So you get advantage from ICMBs all the time indirectly.
      - grandempire 2y ago
        I personally don’t lose sleep over what Putin might do because it’s outside of my circle of influence. Interesting to hear the military budget is now completely necessary from HNers.
    - AngryData 2y ago
      I use them daily, in not being some poor serf, by not risking famine every year, and not living in a land beleaguered by war. Those things are sort of like having competent IT security. If they are doing everything right, they will seem like they aren't doing anything at all, but when they are gone all of a destruction and doom is always just a day away.
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        Sometimes I think that the libertarians should be condemned to live in their dream society, without laws, regulations, public service, etc. It gets tiresome listening to their "taxes are theft" bullshit.
        card_zero 2y ago
        Why are they not collected through consent?
        krapp 2y ago
        No one would consent.
        grandempire 2y ago
        There are many community groups historically funded through consent with seemingly no direct kickbacks, including churches.
        krapp 2y ago
        We're not talking about communities, we're talking about modern countries. Most people aren't willing to pay out of pocket for anything that doesn't benefit them directly, which is why the reason most people give to charity is that its tax deductible. A few might give out of the kindness of their heart or some sense of civic duty, but not enough.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      What exactly is the problem with sociology research? Is it not a valid field of study? Or are you just against research grants as a whole? I think it benefits society to fund academic research.
      - grandempire 2y ago
        > I think it benefits society to fund academic research. see how you mentally group all these things under one umbrella. No I don’t think sociology research is on the same standing as physics research and I also don’t think all physics research is equal. Based on the reports coming from Doge I think there are a lot of bad studies funded in the name of science or academic research.
        fnordian_slip 2y ago
        > Based on the reports coming from Doge Is this supposed to be a humorous comment, or are you seriously using the reports coming from doge in an argument, as if they were honest reports? I realise that this comment might come off as antagonistic, and I apologise. But since I guffawed when I read it, as I interpreted it as the former, I'm now curious to find out if I'm correct.
        grandempire 2y ago
        All the reports are fake? These projects weren’t actually being funded? I have grad school friends who lost funding. Was that fake?
        fnordian_slip 2y ago
        You misunderstood me, I think. I'm not calling doges actions fake, but the reports about how much money they saved. And I call into question the pretense that the projects they defunded were all complete wastes of money, as the head of that department is known to be a habitual liar.
        2y ago
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    "SS TAX" does not pay for roads or parks, you know
richardanaya 2y ago
When you understand the immorality of taxes, there’s nothing immoral about getting your money back from a government that took it while repudiating the taxes.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  It's all fun and games until you don't have paved streets anymore.
- FredPret 2y ago
  I love capitalism and am a former Rand fan. But I don't think taxes are in and of themselves immoral. A human being is a social animal, and each gets a lot of value from the people around us. These are nice to have: - clean streets - police - non-corrupt judges - a stable legal framework - living among educated people - fire department that just shows up - not getting bombed and invaded by a foreign army - much more These are "true expenses" in that if you didn't pay for them... you'd eventually pay the price for them when you're the victim of crime, fire, or exposure to the illiterate. If you lived in Galt's Gulch or some gated community in an anarchic society, you'd pay a regular fee for these services, like voluntary taxes. Taxes are infamously as inevitable as death because the expenses it's meant to pay for are also inevitable. We might as well set up a system. Government waste is held up as an example of immorality, and some/most governments certainly should be leaner, but some waste & inertia would happen in any large organization, public or private. The only other time a government could be straight-up immoral is if it's persecuting innocent citizens or foreigners for no reason. Thinking through the implementation details of Galt's Gulch makes me think taxes aren't so bad after all.
- goatlover 2y ago
  What makes taxes immoral? People want their government to provide certain services. Those need to be paid for. What services should be funded depends on who you ask. It's interesting how the Nordic people are fine with paying more for strong social safety nets. They see it as an investment in society.

Ayn Rand herself was on social security too fwiw. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ayn-rand-social-security/

dmitrygr 2y ago

"In her later years"....well, yeah! I will structure my finances that way too. I get money stolen from me yearly by force for "SS TAX", and i surely plan to get every cent back out of it that i can. I will not get even 10% back, but that is better than 0

surgical_fire 2y ago
This is not how it works. Did you ever use the streets in front of your house? Ever went to a public park? Ever relied on police to protect your property? Ever needed the help of public health services? Firefighters? It's funny that you get money stole from you (while you certainly use a ton on infrastructure society provides), but never once considered leaving it behind and go live as a hunter gatherer in some remote place. After all, you are posting here.
- grandempire 2y ago
  How much of the budget is police, parks, and roads? When the budget is questioned the response is always the most popular examples and ignore everything else. When was the last time you used a sociology research grant? Or an ICBM?
  - jeltz 2y ago
    The reason we pay for ICMBs is to prevent warmongers like Putin from invading countries which would be bad for the whole global economy. So you get advantage from ICMBs all the time indirectly.
    - grandempire 2y ago
      I personally don’t lose sleep over what Putin might do because it’s outside of my circle of influence. Interesting to hear the military budget is now completely necessary from HNers.
  - AngryData 2y ago
    I use them daily, in not being some poor serf, by not risking famine every year, and not living in a land beleaguered by war. Those things are sort of like having competent IT security. If they are doing everything right, they will seem like they aren't doing anything at all, but when they are gone all of a destruction and doom is always just a day away.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      Sometimes I think that the libertarians should be condemned to live in their dream society, without laws, regulations, public service, etc. It gets tiresome listening to their "taxes are theft" bullshit.
      - card_zero 2y ago
        Why are they not collected through consent?
        krapp 2y ago
        No one would consent.
        grandempire 2y ago
        There are many community groups historically funded through consent with seemingly no direct kickbacks, including churches.
        krapp 2y ago
        We're not talking about communities, we're talking about modern countries. Most people aren't willing to pay out of pocket for anything that doesn't benefit them directly, which is why the reason most people give to charity is that its tax deductible. A few might give out of the kindness of their heart or some sense of civic duty, but not enough.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    What exactly is the problem with sociology research? Is it not a valid field of study? Or are you just against research grants as a whole? I think it benefits society to fund academic research.
    - grandempire 2y ago
      > I think it benefits society to fund academic research. see how you mentally group all these things under one umbrella. No I don’t think sociology research is on the same standing as physics research and I also don’t think all physics research is equal. Based on the reports coming from Doge I think there are a lot of bad studies funded in the name of science or academic research.
      - fnordian_slip 2y ago
        > Based on the reports coming from Doge Is this supposed to be a humorous comment, or are you seriously using the reports coming from doge in an argument, as if they were honest reports? I realise that this comment might come off as antagonistic, and I apologise. But since I guffawed when I read it, as I interpreted it as the former, I'm now curious to find out if I'm correct.
        grandempire 2y ago
        All the reports are fake? These projects weren’t actually being funded? I have grad school friends who lost funding. Was that fake?
        fnordian_slip 2y ago
        You misunderstood me, I think. I'm not calling doges actions fake, but the reports about how much money they saved. And I call into question the pretense that the projects they defunded were all complete wastes of money, as the head of that department is known to be a habitual liar.
        2y ago
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  "SS TAX" does not pay for roads or parks, you know

richardanaya 2y ago

When you understand the immorality of taxes, there’s nothing immoral about getting your money back from a government that took it while repudiating the taxes.

surgical_fire 2y ago
It's all fun and games until you don't have paved streets anymore.
FredPret 2y ago
I love capitalism and am a former Rand fan. But I don't think taxes are in and of themselves immoral. A human being is a social animal, and each gets a lot of value from the people around us. These are nice to have: - clean streets - police - non-corrupt judges - a stable legal framework - living among educated people - fire department that just shows up - not getting bombed and invaded by a foreign army - much more These are "true expenses" in that if you didn't pay for them... you'd eventually pay the price for them when you're the victim of crime, fire, or exposure to the illiterate. If you lived in Galt's Gulch or some gated community in an anarchic society, you'd pay a regular fee for these services, like voluntary taxes. Taxes are infamously as inevitable as death because the expenses it's meant to pay for are also inevitable. We might as well set up a system. Government waste is held up as an example of immorality, and some/most governments certainly should be leaner, but some waste & inertia would happen in any large organization, public or private. The only other time a government could be straight-up immoral is if it's persecuting innocent citizens or foreigners for no reason. Thinking through the implementation details of Galt's Gulch makes me think taxes aren't so bad after all.
goatlover 2y ago
What makes taxes immoral? People want their government to provide certain services. Those need to be paid for. What services should be funded depends on who you ask. It's interesting how the Nordic people are fine with paying more for strong social safety nets. They see it as an investment in society.