4 ms·

Bacteriophages suck. What some people never tell you is that the body treats phages as invaders and can very effectively get rid of them, they are not adapted t

by yyyk 2y ago

Bacteriophages suck. What some people never tell you is that the body treats phages as invaders and can very effectively get rid of them, they are not adapted to the human environment. These are only good for local treatments, sometimes...

pazimzadeh 2y ago
that seems like a good thing. they only infect bacteria, not humans phages are found in large quantities in mucus, where they seemingly contribute to the barrier function of mucus by preying on any bacteria that try go cross https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23690590/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23690590/ https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1508355112 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1508355112 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.01984-19 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.01984-19 this might be adaptable for therapeutics https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48560-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48560-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-024-07269-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-024-07269-0
drob518 2y ago
Well, you actually want the body to clear things. That’s not a problem, it’s a feature. If the phage is able to target the bacteria before it is fully cleared, that’s all you need. Humans have been injected with phages and it has been shown to work. The Soviets actually did a lot of research on it, IIRC. The practical issue that is really challenging for broad phage therapy adoption is that phages are very specific to the bacteria they target. So, you can’t just get injected with any old phage and expect it to work. Instead, you need to catalog all the phages you find in a database and search for one that can target the specific bacteria the patient has been infected with. Phages are simply viruses that target bacteria. You’re awash in them all the time.
- yyyk 2y ago
  It's a good thing, unless the body clears off the phage first, leading to both reduced effectiveness and the body wasting immune resources. It does work locally, and one can probably engineer it today to work even better. But it seems to be destined to be relegated to a secondary cure. We seem to be able to keep finding new antibiotics with benefits like 'massive safety testing' or 'we know exactly how they work', or 'very easy to administer'.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  >you need to catalog all the phages you find in a database and search for one that can target the specific bacteria the patient has been infected with. Most of the time the doctor doesn't know the exact pathogen you are infected with. He'll suspect a bacterian infection of some kind and prescribe a wide range antibiotic. Doing what you suggest will require changing the way we do medicine. Which might not be a bad thing but requires some determination.
  - nomadpenguin 2y ago
    This is correct, it's called empiric treatment. If a patient comes in with altered mental status and neck rigidity, you don't have time to take a lumbar puncture and culture bacteria. I don't know anything about phage treatment, but from what the other commenter said, it seems like then you'd have to do some sort of PCR test as well. You simply don't have time for any of that -- your only choice is to blast them with vancomycin + ceftriaxone.
    - coryrc 2y ago
      Yeah, which is why we need to stop using antibiotics for cases where we could use phage treatment.
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        Wait what
        coryrc 2y ago
        If you come into ED with GGP's symptom's, you might only have an hour to live. Hopefully for you it's bacterial and didn't pick up resistance from horizontal transference from a strep throat treatment that's trivial to culture and, while unpleasant, can wait a few hours to start treatment while the correct bacteriophage is readied.
  - ip26 2y ago
    Feels like it might be more practical to simply distribute phage therapy to a whole population targeting a known pathogen, like this year’s cold strain. Especially of the goal is just to reduce the use of antibiotics, not eliminate.
- ninalanyon 2y ago
  The really big issue is that there isn't enough money in it, there is no way to get an exclusive. It should be promoted by governments.

by yyyk 2y ago

pazimzadeh 2y ago

that seems like a good thing. they only infect bacteria, not humans phages are found in large quantities in mucus, where they seemingly contribute to the barrier function of mucus by preying on any bacteria that try go cross https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23690590/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23690590/ https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1508355112 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1508355112 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.01984-19 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.01984-19 this might be adaptable for therapeutics https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48560-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48560-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-024-07269-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-024-07269-0

drob518 2y ago

Well, you actually want the body to clear things. That’s not a problem, it’s a feature. If the phage is able to target the bacteria before it is fully cleared, that’s all you need. Humans have been injected with phages and it has been shown to work. The Soviets actually did a lot of research on it, IIRC. The practical issue that is really challenging for broad phage therapy adoption is that phages are very specific to the bacteria they target. So, you can’t just get injected with any old phage and expect it to work. Instead, you need to catalog all the phages you find in a database and search for one that can target the specific bacteria the patient has been infected with. Phages are simply viruses that target bacteria. You’re awash in them all the time.

yyyk 2y ago
It's a good thing, unless the body clears off the phage first, leading to both reduced effectiveness and the body wasting immune resources. It does work locally, and one can probably engineer it today to work even better. But it seems to be destined to be relegated to a secondary cure. We seem to be able to keep finding new antibiotics with benefits like 'massive safety testing' or 'we know exactly how they work', or 'very easy to administer'.
DeathArrow 2y ago
>you need to catalog all the phages you find in a database and search for one that can target the specific bacteria the patient has been infected with. Most of the time the doctor doesn't know the exact pathogen you are infected with. He'll suspect a bacterian infection of some kind and prescribe a wide range antibiotic. Doing what you suggest will require changing the way we do medicine. Which might not be a bad thing but requires some determination.
- nomadpenguin 2y ago
  This is correct, it's called empiric treatment. If a patient comes in with altered mental status and neck rigidity, you don't have time to take a lumbar puncture and culture bacteria. I don't know anything about phage treatment, but from what the other commenter said, it seems like then you'd have to do some sort of PCR test as well. You simply don't have time for any of that -- your only choice is to blast them with vancomycin + ceftriaxone.
  - coryrc 2y ago
    Yeah, which is why we need to stop using antibiotics for cases where we could use phage treatment.
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      Wait what
      - coryrc 2y ago
        If you come into ED with GGP's symptom's, you might only have an hour to live. Hopefully for you it's bacterial and didn't pick up resistance from horizontal transference from a strep throat treatment that's trivial to culture and, while unpleasant, can wait a few hours to start treatment while the correct bacteriophage is readied.
- ip26 2y ago
  Feels like it might be more practical to simply distribute phage therapy to a whole population targeting a known pathogen, like this year’s cold strain. Especially of the goal is just to reduce the use of antibiotics, not eliminate.
ninalanyon 2y ago
The really big issue is that there isn't enough money in it, there is no way to get an exclusive. It should be promoted by governments.