5 ms·

> If the code works, passes all relevant tests, is reasonably maintainable, and can be fitted into the system correctly with a well defined interface, does it r

by mjr00 2y ago

> If the code works, passes all relevant tests, is reasonably maintainable, and can be fitted into the system correctly with a well defined interface, does it really matter? You're not wrong here, but there's a big difference in programming one-off tooling or prototype MVPs and programming things that need to be maintained for years and years. We did this song and dance pretty recently with dynamic typing. Developers thought it was so much more productive to use dynamically typed languages, because it is in the initial phases. Then years went by, those small, quick-to-make dynamic codebases ended up becoming unmaintainable monstrosities, and those developers who hyped up dynamic typing invented Python/PHP type hinting and Flow for JavaScript, later moving to TypeScript entirely. Nowadays nobody seriously recommends building long-lived systems in untyped languages, but they are still very useful for one-off scripting and more interactive/exploratory work where correctness is less important, i.e. Jupyter notebooks. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same pattern happen with low-supervision AI code; it's great for popping out the first MVP, but because it generates poor code, the gung-ho junior devs who think they're getting 10x productivity gains will wisen up and realize the value of spending an hour thinking about proper levels of abstraction instead of YOLO'ing the first thing the AI spits out when they want to build a system that's going to be worked on by multiple developers for multiple years.

nottorp 2y ago
> those small, quick-to-make dynamic codebases ended up becoming unmaintainable monstrosities In my experience, type checking / type hinting already starts to pay off when more than one person is working on an even small-ish code base. Just because it helps you keep in mind what comes/goes to the other guy's code.
- lolinder 2y ago
  And in my experience "me 3 months later" counts as a whole second developer that needs accommodating. The only time I appreciate not having to think about types is on code that I know I will never, ever come back to—stuff like a one off bash script.
  - wesselbindt 2y ago
    > "me 3 months later" counts as a whole second developer A fairly incompetent one, in my experience. And don't even get me started on "me 3 months ago", that guy's even worse.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      "How has that shit ever worked?" Me, looking at code 100% written by me last year.
      - baq 2y ago
        It gets worse with age and size of the project. I’m getting the same vibes, but for code written by me last month.
- guskel 2y ago
  Yep, I've seen type hinting even be helpful without a type checker in python. Just as a way for devs to tell each other what they intend on passing. Even when a small percent of the hints are incorrect, having those hints there can still pay off.
bcoates 2y ago
I think the productivity gains of dynamic typed languages were real, and based on two things: dynamic typing (can) provide certain safety properties trivially, and dynamic typing neatly kills off the utterly inadequate type systems found in mainstream languages when they were launched (the 90s, mostly). You'll notice the type systems being bolted onto dynamic languages or found in serious attempts at new languages are radically different than the type systems being rejected by the likes of javascript, python, ruby and perl.
triyambakam 2y ago
The ML world being nearly entirely in Python, much of it untyped (and that the Python type system is pretty weak) is really scary.
- ramesh31 2y ago
  >The ML world being nearly entirely in Python, much of it untyped (and that the Python type system is pretty weak) is really scary I think this has a ton to do with the mixed results from "vibe coding" we've seen as the codebase grows in scope and complexity. Agents seem to break down without a good type system. Same goes for JS. I've just recently started on an Objective-C project using Cline, and it's like nirvana. I can code out an entire interface and have it implemented for me as I'm going. I see no reason it couldn't scale infinitely to massive LOC with good coding practices. The real killer feature is header files. Being able to have your entire projects headers in context at all time, along with a proper compiler for debugging, changes the game for how agents can reason on the whole codebase.
dheera 2y ago
> You're not wrong here, but there's a big difference in programming one-off tooling or prototype MVPs and programming things that need to be maintained for years and years. Humans also worry about their jobs, especially in PIP-happy companies; they are very well known for writing intentionally over-complicated code that only they understand so that they are irreplaceable
- XorNot 2y ago
  I'm not convinced this actually happens. Seems more like somthing people assume happens because they don't like whatever codebase is at the new job.
  - dheera 2y ago
    Oh, I'm convinced, I've seen it first hand.
  - baq 2y ago
    If your TC is 500k-1M and you don’t feel like job hopping anymore, you’d certainly not want to get hit by a random layoff due to insufficient organizational masculinity or whatever. Maintaining a complex blob of mission critical code is one way of increasing your survival chances, though of course nothing is guaranteed.
    - LtWorf 2y ago
      People doing layoffs have no idea of who works and who's warming the chair.
      - baq 2y ago
        Depending on the layoff they may look into yearly reviews... or not.
        LtWorf 2y ago
        Ah yes, those work /s
ManuelKiessling 2y ago
I'm certainly extremely happy for having an extensive type system in my daily driver languages especially when working with AI coding assistance — it's yet another very crucial guard rail that ensures that keeps the AI on track and makes a lot of fuckups downright impossible.

by mjr00 2y ago

nottorp 2y ago

> those small, quick-to-make dynamic codebases ended up becoming unmaintainable monstrosities In my experience, type checking / type hinting already starts to pay off when more than one person is working on an even small-ish code base. Just because it helps you keep in mind what comes/goes to the other guy's code.

lolinder 2y ago
And in my experience "me 3 months later" counts as a whole second developer that needs accommodating. The only time I appreciate not having to think about types is on code that I know I will never, ever come back to—stuff like a one off bash script.
- wesselbindt 2y ago
  > "me 3 months later" counts as a whole second developer A fairly incompetent one, in my experience. And don't even get me started on "me 3 months ago", that guy's even worse.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    "How has that shit ever worked?" Me, looking at code 100% written by me last year.
    - baq 2y ago
      It gets worse with age and size of the project. I’m getting the same vibes, but for code written by me last month.
guskel 2y ago
Yep, I've seen type hinting even be helpful without a type checker in python. Just as a way for devs to tell each other what they intend on passing. Even when a small percent of the hints are incorrect, having those hints there can still pay off.

bcoates 2y ago

I think the productivity gains of dynamic typed languages were real, and based on two things: dynamic typing (can) provide certain safety properties trivially, and dynamic typing neatly kills off the utterly inadequate type systems found in mainstream languages when they were launched (the 90s, mostly). You'll notice the type systems being bolted onto dynamic languages or found in serious attempts at new languages are radically different than the type systems being rejected by the likes of javascript, python, ruby and perl.

triyambakam 2y ago

The ML world being nearly entirely in Python, much of it untyped (and that the Python type system is pretty weak) is really scary.

ramesh31 2y ago
>The ML world being nearly entirely in Python, much of it untyped (and that the Python type system is pretty weak) is really scary I think this has a ton to do with the mixed results from "vibe coding" we've seen as the codebase grows in scope and complexity. Agents seem to break down without a good type system. Same goes for JS. I've just recently started on an Objective-C project using Cline, and it's like nirvana. I can code out an entire interface and have it implemented for me as I'm going. I see no reason it couldn't scale infinitely to massive LOC with good coding practices. The real killer feature is header files. Being able to have your entire projects headers in context at all time, along with a proper compiler for debugging, changes the game for how agents can reason on the whole codebase.

dheera 2y ago

> You're not wrong here, but there's a big difference in programming one-off tooling or prototype MVPs and programming things that need to be maintained for years and years. Humans also worry about their jobs, especially in PIP-happy companies; they are very well known for writing intentionally over-complicated code that only they understand so that they are irreplaceable

XorNot 2y ago
I'm not convinced this actually happens. Seems more like somthing people assume happens because they don't like whatever codebase is at the new job.
- dheera 2y ago
  Oh, I'm convinced, I've seen it first hand.
- baq 2y ago
  If your TC is 500k-1M and you don’t feel like job hopping anymore, you’d certainly not want to get hit by a random layoff due to insufficient organizational masculinity or whatever. Maintaining a complex blob of mission critical code is one way of increasing your survival chances, though of course nothing is guaranteed.
  - LtWorf 2y ago
    People doing layoffs have no idea of who works and who's warming the chair.
    - baq 2y ago
      Depending on the layoff they may look into yearly reviews... or not.
      - LtWorf 2y ago
        Ah yes, those work /s

ManuelKiessling 2y ago

I'm certainly extremely happy for having an extensive type system in my daily driver languages especially when working with AI coding assistance — it's yet another very crucial guard rail that ensures that keeps the AI on track and makes a lot of fuckups downright impossible.