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I'm an American. I've generally benefited from the system here (which speaks to my privilege, of which I'm aware). I don't want to wade into political battles,

I'm an American. I've generally benefited from the system here (which speaks to my privilege, of which I'm aware). I don't want to wade into political battles, but I'm genuinely concerned for my future and the future of my children from an economic standpoint, based on where things seem to be going. I am considering options on the spectrum with ends like: * Staying here, because this is where I was born and raised and I've felt like the country has generally taken care of me - and hey, it can't stay bad forever, right? * Leaving to another country, because I am feeling less and less like the country's leadership care about building a society or economy that tries to take care of its people and creates incentives to innovate. This isn't because of just the last few months; I view the last few months as big symptoms of something more systemic that's been building up. I am also not looking to jump ship quickly because things "temporarily got hard." On the flip side, I'm also feeling incredibly jaded these days: how could it be much better anywhere else? Are there places out in the world where my wife and I could take our experience (mine being a strong career in tech, my wife's being a strong nursing career) and put it to use elsewhere where I could hope for a good standard of living, more stability in government leadership, and incentives similar to the economic system I grew up in, where our children could thrive and build a life? I'm not pulling any triggers quickly or easily... I'm just trying to gather some data and different perspectives, even those that might challenge my own. Maybe an answer is "stop reading news." edit: formatting

dumbledoren 2y ago
Yeah, go gentrify the locals in some lower-cost-of-living country. You sure 'deserve' it because for some reason you have a 'right' to just immigrate there and buy their housing and sh*t from under their feet.
- jodacola 2y ago
  I appreciate your frustration, dumbledoren. Your comment speaks to perspectives I could expect to face in another country - thank you. I can only say my personal intent isn't that. I live a simple life. My family has a small, old home. We garden, grow our own food, and are respectful to our environment. I prioritize supporting small, local businesses. I wouldn't want to parachute into another country acting as though I Know Better™ and bringing my "American sensibilities" to another country. If I were to leave the US, I see myself entering another country, hat in hand, knowing fully I'm not better or special, and it's my job to adapt and to respect the culture and country.
  - dumbledoren 2y ago
    > I can only say my personal intent isn't that. I live a simple life. And yet you will end up doing that when you move to such a country. Regardless of your intentions. > it's my job to adapt and to respect the culture and country Unfortunately respect and cultural adaptation do not alleviate the effects of gentrification via housing costs and cost of living. It would be less of a problem only if you went to a country and location that has a similar cost of living as where you live now, but then again, that's not really on the table, is it...
    - alpha_squared 2y ago
      > It would be less of a problem only if you went to a country and location that has a similar cost of living as where you live now, but then again, that's not really on the table, is it... This seems to be an assumption you made, but the poster did not imply or state. As someone in a similar mindset to the poster, I'm not looking for lower CoL places, I'm looking for comparable QoL places which ultimately points to Europe or Oceania. We'd be paid dramatically less, which we're okay with, but the QoL would be comparable (perhaps even better when counting social services).
      - jodacola 2y ago
        I understand where they're coming from, though. If I pulled the trigger, it would be to a similar CoL location, but that still gets to their point: if many people do the same, prices go up. Housing availability goes down. And all the knock-on effects that could result in "gentrification." How do I balance that (and all sorts of other things) with my desire to keep my family safe and give my children a chance at a solid future, though? I'm not sure, which is why I feel so much consternation and a need to gather more information to inform how I'll decide to act in the future.
        dumbledoren 1y ago
        > If I pulled the trigger, it would be to a similar CoL location, but that still gets to their point: if many people do the same, prices go up. Housing availability goes down. And all the knock-on effects that could result in "gentrification." Precisely. You don't need to put gentrification in quotes. It invariably happens. And it gentrifies both the locals and the recent immigrants. > How do I balance that (and all sorts of other things) with my desire to keep my family safe and give my children a chance at a solid future, though? From the dynamics that seem to go around such white-collar immigration for these reasons, there doesn't seem to be a way to prevent gentrification and CoL rise. The only exception may be going to places that sorely lack people, like the American North Midwest - places that not only risk depopulation, but also places that can carry immense amounts of people and are open to development. The majority of the world is not like that. The majority of European population centers are squeezed between river valleys between mountains or short strips of land between the mountains/hills and the sea. And they are already built to hell. The depopulated mountain regions of such places could use some people, but they can in no way handle the amount of emigration that the richer countries seem to be generating. That is one reason why Europe gets higher CoL and gentrification so fast from such immigration. South America fares a little better because it has at least some more space, but it suffers from the same in the end: The desirable locations are limited and the immigrants go to those locations, causing skyrocketing costs. Looking at Asia and Africa, it may be a little better because in certain locations there are vast spaces and major cities that could handle immense amounts of people and could use development, but those don't seem to be popular destinations for such white-collar immigrants. So it again comes back to the US: The 'flyover country' between the coasts in the US is an immense space that is open to a level of development that no other place on the planet can provide. Most of that space seems to be occupied by either unused public land, or by the cattle industry. There was recent research that detailed how the cattle industry sits on top of a gigantic amount of land almost for free despite propping itself up with government subsidies and how it could solve the housing woes of the US and provide unparalleled development. But until citizens, investors and planners start putting pressure on politicians to offset the influence of the cattle industry lobby, that land will keep propping up the cattle industry instead of being used for urban development.
- whiplash451 2y ago
  What motivates such a rude answer? The parent is genuinely exposing a personal question. Nothing in his post suggests that he would go gentrify a low COL place.
  - dumbledoren 1y ago
    > What motivates such a rude answer? Gentrification. > Nothing in his post suggests that he would go gentrify a low COL place Nobody who moves out of the richer countries goes to a richer country. This includes the ultra-rich: Even they move to a place where their money will go much further, even if that is a district in London that they can comfortably afford. So it always ends up in gentrification.
testing22321 2y ago
If it continues on the current trajectory, literally all the OECD countries will offer a better life than the US. In every meaningful measure they already do
- jodacola 2y ago
  Thank you, good information. I've traveled a bit to some of the other OECD countries and haven't felt any disparities in comfort and such while traveling, but traveling and building a life and career are two very different things.
- mbs159 1y ago
  > literally all the OECD countries will offer a better life than the US Many already do, at least in terms of the World Happiness Report [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
whiplash451 2y ago
If I may: I would sit this out for a little while. Moving with another partner to another country is a huge undertaking. Now, if this was in the back of your mind before, that’s another story.
- jodacola 2y ago
  Heard. The thought of moving to another country is, honestly, scary, like starting over, figuring out how to live and build from from 0 again. It's not just my partner, but also my kids I'm concerned about. The idea of moving my whole family to another country feels overwhelming, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make if it means my children can have a chance at a good life, versus what I'm starting to fear they'll experience here. I appreciate the reminder of patience.
  - ragnot 2y ago
    Not saying it is easy, but when I was a teenager I moved across the world because my father needed the job. It sucked in the moment, but looking back it was the best thing that ever happened to me.
soderfoo 2y ago
If you want to relocate to another country focus on the "pull factors" of that place, rather than the "push factors." I moved to Sweden because my wife and I felt that was the best place to start a family. I'm on parental leave and cherish every moment I get to spend with my kid. We would have made the move no matter what was happening in the US. Well, unless there was a major cultural shift and a generous grant of child care benefits equivalent to SWE.
- jodacola 2y ago
  Thank you for this. Very fair point, and something I've preached to folks when changing jobs in the past: don't leave your job for another company because your current job is awful... make sure you're joining a new company you actually feel good about, otherwise you'll end up in another potentially bad situation. Thank you for the reminder. How has Sweden treated you and your family, and how do you feel about the general economic outlook for yourself and your children? Are expats accepted there? What kind of challenges could I expect if Sweden were a consideration? edit: small tweak
agumonkey 2y ago
I'm not American so this is a newb question, would moving to a saner state help ?
- jodacola 2y ago
  I don't live in a terribly "insane" state, but moving back to a state like California (where I was born and raised) doesn't alleviate my biggest concerns around the economy and the country's leadership and what it's doing to things like healthcare, education, and economic opportunity, and certainly not my concerns about my children being able to ever get onto a solid economic ladder. California is so prohibitively expensive that they'll be forever renters, unable to save, unless they get an extremely high-paying job that allows that serious privilege and opportunity. That's not guaranteed, at all. The state I'm in now is comparatively far less inexpensive than my home state, but it's getting more and more expensive and, even here, I worry about my kids being able to truly get on their feet and being able to make a life of their own. It's scary to see what the generations currently coming up are facing, no matter the location in the country - and to see the economy being hit hard with a sledgehammer right now makes it even scarier.

dumbledoren 2y ago

Yeah, go gentrify the locals in some lower-cost-of-living country. You sure 'deserve' it because for some reason you have a 'right' to just immigrate there and buy their housing and sh*t from under their feet.

jodacola 2y ago
I appreciate your frustration, dumbledoren. Your comment speaks to perspectives I could expect to face in another country - thank you. I can only say my personal intent isn't that. I live a simple life. My family has a small, old home. We garden, grow our own food, and are respectful to our environment. I prioritize supporting small, local businesses. I wouldn't want to parachute into another country acting as though I Know Better™ and bringing my "American sensibilities" to another country. If I were to leave the US, I see myself entering another country, hat in hand, knowing fully I'm not better or special, and it's my job to adapt and to respect the culture and country.
- dumbledoren 2y ago
  > I can only say my personal intent isn't that. I live a simple life. And yet you will end up doing that when you move to such a country. Regardless of your intentions. > it's my job to adapt and to respect the culture and country Unfortunately respect and cultural adaptation do not alleviate the effects of gentrification via housing costs and cost of living. It would be less of a problem only if you went to a country and location that has a similar cost of living as where you live now, but then again, that's not really on the table, is it...
  - alpha_squared 2y ago
    > It would be less of a problem only if you went to a country and location that has a similar cost of living as where you live now, but then again, that's not really on the table, is it... This seems to be an assumption you made, but the poster did not imply or state. As someone in a similar mindset to the poster, I'm not looking for lower CoL places, I'm looking for comparable QoL places which ultimately points to Europe or Oceania. We'd be paid dramatically less, which we're okay with, but the QoL would be comparable (perhaps even better when counting social services).
    - jodacola 2y ago
      I understand where they're coming from, though. If I pulled the trigger, it would be to a similar CoL location, but that still gets to their point: if many people do the same, prices go up. Housing availability goes down. And all the knock-on effects that could result in "gentrification." How do I balance that (and all sorts of other things) with my desire to keep my family safe and give my children a chance at a solid future, though? I'm not sure, which is why I feel so much consternation and a need to gather more information to inform how I'll decide to act in the future.
      - dumbledoren 1y ago
        > If I pulled the trigger, it would be to a similar CoL location, but that still gets to their point: if many people do the same, prices go up. Housing availability goes down. And all the knock-on effects that could result in "gentrification." Precisely. You don't need to put gentrification in quotes. It invariably happens. And it gentrifies both the locals and the recent immigrants. > How do I balance that (and all sorts of other things) with my desire to keep my family safe and give my children a chance at a solid future, though? From the dynamics that seem to go around such white-collar immigration for these reasons, there doesn't seem to be a way to prevent gentrification and CoL rise. The only exception may be going to places that sorely lack people, like the American North Midwest - places that not only risk depopulation, but also places that can carry immense amounts of people and are open to development. The majority of the world is not like that. The majority of European population centers are squeezed between river valleys between mountains or short strips of land between the mountains/hills and the sea. And they are already built to hell. The depopulated mountain regions of such places could use some people, but they can in no way handle the amount of emigration that the richer countries seem to be generating. That is one reason why Europe gets higher CoL and gentrification so fast from such immigration. South America fares a little better because it has at least some more space, but it suffers from the same in the end: The desirable locations are limited and the immigrants go to those locations, causing skyrocketing costs. Looking at Asia and Africa, it may be a little better because in certain locations there are vast spaces and major cities that could handle immense amounts of people and could use development, but those don't seem to be popular destinations for such white-collar immigrants. So it again comes back to the US: The 'flyover country' between the coasts in the US is an immense space that is open to a level of development that no other place on the planet can provide. Most of that space seems to be occupied by either unused public land, or by the cattle industry. There was recent research that detailed how the cattle industry sits on top of a gigantic amount of land almost for free despite propping itself up with government subsidies and how it could solve the housing woes of the US and provide unparalleled development. But until citizens, investors and planners start putting pressure on politicians to offset the influence of the cattle industry lobby, that land will keep propping up the cattle industry instead of being used for urban development.
whiplash451 2y ago
What motivates such a rude answer? The parent is genuinely exposing a personal question. Nothing in his post suggests that he would go gentrify a low COL place.
- dumbledoren 1y ago
  > What motivates such a rude answer? Gentrification. > Nothing in his post suggests that he would go gentrify a low COL place Nobody who moves out of the richer countries goes to a richer country. This includes the ultra-rich: Even they move to a place where their money will go much further, even if that is a district in London that they can comfortably afford. So it always ends up in gentrification.

testing22321 2y ago

If it continues on the current trajectory, literally all the OECD countries will offer a better life than the US. In every meaningful measure they already do

jodacola 2y ago
Thank you, good information. I've traveled a bit to some of the other OECD countries and haven't felt any disparities in comfort and such while traveling, but traveling and building a life and career are two very different things.
mbs159 1y ago
> literally all the OECD countries will offer a better life than the US Many already do, at least in terms of the World Happiness Report [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

whiplash451 2y ago

If I may: I would sit this out for a little while. Moving with another partner to another country is a huge undertaking. Now, if this was in the back of your mind before, that’s another story.

jodacola 2y ago
Heard. The thought of moving to another country is, honestly, scary, like starting over, figuring out how to live and build from from 0 again. It's not just my partner, but also my kids I'm concerned about. The idea of moving my whole family to another country feels overwhelming, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make if it means my children can have a chance at a good life, versus what I'm starting to fear they'll experience here. I appreciate the reminder of patience.
- ragnot 2y ago
  Not saying it is easy, but when I was a teenager I moved across the world because my father needed the job. It sucked in the moment, but looking back it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

soderfoo 2y ago

If you want to relocate to another country focus on the "pull factors" of that place, rather than the "push factors." I moved to Sweden because my wife and I felt that was the best place to start a family. I'm on parental leave and cherish every moment I get to spend with my kid. We would have made the move no matter what was happening in the US. Well, unless there was a major cultural shift and a generous grant of child care benefits equivalent to SWE.

jodacola 2y ago
Thank you for this. Very fair point, and something I've preached to folks when changing jobs in the past: don't leave your job for another company because your current job is awful... make sure you're joining a new company you actually feel good about, otherwise you'll end up in another potentially bad situation. Thank you for the reminder. How has Sweden treated you and your family, and how do you feel about the general economic outlook for yourself and your children? Are expats accepted there? What kind of challenges could I expect if Sweden were a consideration? edit: small tweak

agumonkey 2y ago

I'm not American so this is a newb question, would moving to a saner state help ?

jodacola 2y ago
I don't live in a terribly "insane" state, but moving back to a state like California (where I was born and raised) doesn't alleviate my biggest concerns around the economy and the country's leadership and what it's doing to things like healthcare, education, and economic opportunity, and certainly not my concerns about my children being able to ever get onto a solid economic ladder. California is so prohibitively expensive that they'll be forever renters, unable to save, unless they get an extremely high-paying job that allows that serious privilege and opportunity. That's not guaranteed, at all. The state I'm in now is comparatively far less inexpensive than my home state, but it's getting more and more expensive and, even here, I worry about my kids being able to truly get on their feet and being able to make a life of their own. It's scary to see what the generations currently coming up are facing, no matter the location in the country - and to see the economy being hit hard with a sledgehammer right now makes it even scarier.