7 ms·

The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, C

The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-components 0 times over the life of the device. The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature, any more than the user of a car being able to easily hot-swap the engine. The right level of integration provides a tradeoff the maximizes reliability, cost, performance, and repair. A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home. I really hope Framework can continue to develop hardware with documented repairability, without falling for the myth that tight integration and quality are mutually exclusive.

globular-toast 2y ago
Sad but true. Most people don't do much with the things they own, even if they can. Cars get serviced when they are told to, by someone else. No modifications are done. It's a weird thing to me because you get the downsides of ownership (liability for servicing and repairs) but none of the upsides. I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever they get.
- NullPrefix 2y ago
  >Cars [...] No modifications are done In a lot of places that is highly illegal
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    Really? Where? In the UK it's legal as long as it still passes MOT, but it should be declared to your insurer.
    - NullPrefix 2y ago
      Really? When you're talking about car mods, are you talking about adding chrome door handles or are you talking about LS swapping the engine?
      - globular-toast 2y ago
        You can do absolutely anything to things you own, including cars. That's kinda the point of ownership. Cut it in half if you want. Smash it to pieces. It's all good. I guess what you're really referring to is whether it's still legal to drive on the public highway. As far as I know you can still do anything as long as it still passes the MOT test for roadworthiness. People do engine swaps. You do have to consider insurance, though, which is also a legal requirement for use on the public highway. General insurers typically won't insure modified cars, but there are specialist insurers that will. As I understand the US is far more lax in its vehicle testing than other places, but this isn't really related to ownership and being able to modify things you own.
        NullPrefix 2y ago
        >General insurers typically won't insure modified cars, but there are specialist insurers that will. It's illegal to drive without insurance. This effectively means that engine swaps are illegal, unless you are rich enough to afford some special insurance
zenolijo 2y ago
> A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home. Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead. While the battery might be the only thing with a fixed lifetime, other components often also break. I was unlucky and owned a ThinkPad with one soldered on RAM module and one socketed slot to be able to upgrade the RAM, but that didn't help the day that the soldered on RAM died on me.
- bux93 2y ago
  It's not just price. The market for this expertise is also not very deep and liquid. If I have to get a laptop repaired, what are my choices? Send it off to the manufacturer/importer if it's still under warranty, and get it back in maybe two months. Drop it off at a shop that does also phone repairs and hope they don't wreck it? Realistically I don't know anyone with my specific kind of problem who's used their services before, so I don't really know their reputation. It's not like walking into a supermarket, or even getting a car repaired where you have some sense of the likelihood it will take as long as they say, cost as much as they say and actually succeed. There's much greater information asymmetry. Of course, given how unattractive it is to get something repaired, more people will be inclined to just buy something new, resulting in less demand for repairs, resulting in less supply, less attractive repair market, etc. Repairability (at home, by relative morons) also means more repair shops, because less repairability means death of a repairs market.
  - d3nj4l 2y ago
    Apple is actually really fast with repairs. I got my MBP back in about a week when I sent it in under the limited warranty, not even Apple Care.
- maiinablegkri 2y ago
  >Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead. This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices. Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken wallsocket: >Billed for 100€/hour >Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar, calculating by officially recognized tax administration car wear value 0,59€/km for 5km both ways, so ~6€, 94€ remains >VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70€ >Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%, leaving us with ~57,75€ Now the employee gets 57,75€, out of which following are deducted: >Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15€ >Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1€ >Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6€ So 57,75€ - 23,7€ = ~34€ There are also various single or partial percent taxes that slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single employee.
bkor 2y ago
> Socketed RAM CUDIMM is changeable and fast. > The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature Mostly because people seem to have forgotten that it was possible. Often laptops are slow to due either a too full disk and/or not enough memory. It used to be more common to upgrade those. But apparently that knowledge/skill is forgotten and it's now more custom to buy a new device. Being able to change those saves money IMO.
- thowawatp302 2y ago
  Nah, personally? I know it’s possible, I’ve done it, and I just do not care anymore. not worth it
  - op00to 2y ago
    It's certainly not worth it. I don't think that, for laptops, RAM requirements are increasing nearly as fast as they did 10 years ago. I spec 64GB for my laptops today, and if I could have afforded it, I would have specced 64GB 10 years ago too.
- quailfarmer 2y ago
  It's faster, but a big reason apple silicon is ahead is because the memory is co-packaged on an MCM. This is the direction things are going.
  - bkor 2y ago
    I noticed I made an error when remembering the memory type I saw a while ago. I meant the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module) That's a way to have the memory close, but still being able to change it (without e.g. hot air station or something).
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Not sure about that, although having those fixed short traces probably helps with speed, considering the stupid DDR5 negotiation on boot. The real reason however is that going up SoC SKUs at apple gives you more memory channels. Those bandwidth increases you see in specs are because of that, not because the memory is soldered.
myaccountonhn 2y ago
I think it's an attitude worth challenging. The minerals required to build these laptops are limited, and one day we will have to realize this and care for what we own.
- simgt 2y ago
  Easily swappable components also increase resources consumption. We don't necessary want or need to be able to fix all the parts of our laptops or cars (or shoes!) at home, but we definitely want and need a local professional to be able to do so for a reasonable cost.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- gwbas1c 2y ago
  Chips have a limited lifespan too. It doesn't matter if you can swap a module in your laptop, at some point all those chips will need to be recycled.
timewizard 2y ago
Since display technology does not update as fast as CPU technology, and keyboard technology rarely updates anymore at all, you might still expect the entire mainboard assembly to be upgradeable. Would certainly be more "green."
notpushkin 2y ago
For storage in particular, iBoff made an adapter for NAND chips that places them on a carrier board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw The whole setup (allegedly) fits inside original chassis, too, and disk speeds are about the same. So the only real tradeoffs for Apple are cost and the fact that user can swap in third party parts instead of paying obscene prices Apple charges for spec upgrades.
xandrius 2y ago
If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms. Right now, having devices which require both expertise and expensive machinery means that the cost of going to someone to repair it will increase over 10 folds, making a full replacement a financial and sound choice. If my CPU doesn't last for 10 years but I can change it myself in minutes, I would rather that than throwing away everything else I still love and is still functional just for promised extended reliability (which is just a matter of statistics and profit margins at the end of the day).
- bartread 2y ago
  > If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms. You have to understand though that people like us are a tiny minority. Increasingly I hate creating waste, especially e-waste, and so I'll tinker with things to get them working or upgrade them, but most people don't want the hassle.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    I have taught at least three people how to do simple repairs and upgrades on laptops. Anyone that can read and use their brain can strip a laptop down to components and reassemble it.
    - culopatin 2y ago
      Ok, but you’re missing the point and reassuring OPs. Three people might as well be zero.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        It doesn't matter how many people do it as a hobby. Making a repair easier makes professional repair/upgrade cheaper, enabling poorer people to do it, thus decreasing the overall waste dramatically.
masswerk 2y ago
That said, I've a MacPro 3.1 in production (also 17 years now – always up), which is from Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts. Apart from failing 3rd party RAM, no issues ever. – And I'm probably going to upgrade the drives to SSD (still HDD) this year, since you can still get new upgrade parts for its ancient busses. (And for the failing RAM: open the hood, a LED tells you which strip is failing, swap it, close, go on… The build quality is quite amazing, BTW.)
- op00to 2y ago
  I'm a huge Thinkpad fan. I'm an even bigger MacBook fan. None of my MacBook Pros ever had any issues, and I used my last MacBook for 9 years. I could keep using it with Linux instead of MacOS, but I think almost a decade of use is plenty of value for me. There were recalls and scandals with the MacBook Pro over the years, but nothing that other vendors also didn't see, and that wouldn't have required the same exact parts being replaced. I'm thinking of the GPU issues with certain MacBooks. The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo. I had a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon with the HiDPI screen that was absolutely awful, requiring replacement multiple times. Each time, the moron from Unisys that Lenovo sent to do the on-site repair would return me with a laptop that was poorly reassembled, and with new problems due to the tech's ineptitude. The same dude did service for Lenovo servers, and he once dropped a server that needed a fan replaced on the floor. Talk about fragile. Thinkpads are great, and the oldest ones are still solid to use, but to say that MacBooks are fragile ignores that Thinkpads too are fragile.
  - dahauns 2y ago
    >The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo. Sorry, but this is a joke. "any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product"? Give me a break. Apple has been time and again the champion of denying issues with their products until lawsuits forced their hand, often settling without admitting wrongdoing. Bendgate, Batterygate, MBP nVidia, MBP AMD, Butterfly keyboard, just off the top of my head. (Again: My criticism here is about how Apple handled them.) "You're holding it wrong" is a meme for a reason (that didn't result in a lawsuit, though IIRC)
porphyra 2y ago
The physical socket also introduces a new point of failure. In the olden days there was often "ram was bad but taking it out and reseating it in the socket fixed it", which can be avoided by just having it be on the same physical chip.

globular-toast 2y ago

Sad but true. Most people don't do much with the things they own, even if they can. Cars get serviced when they are told to, by someone else. No modifications are done. It's a weird thing to me because you get the downsides of ownership (liability for servicing and repairs) but none of the upsides. I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever they get.

NullPrefix 2y ago
>Cars [...] No modifications are done In a lot of places that is highly illegal
- globular-toast 2y ago
  Really? Where? In the UK it's legal as long as it still passes MOT, but it should be declared to your insurer.
  - NullPrefix 2y ago
    Really? When you're talking about car mods, are you talking about adding chrome door handles or are you talking about LS swapping the engine?
    - globular-toast 2y ago
      You can do absolutely anything to things you own, including cars. That's kinda the point of ownership. Cut it in half if you want. Smash it to pieces. It's all good. I guess what you're really referring to is whether it's still legal to drive on the public highway. As far as I know you can still do anything as long as it still passes the MOT test for roadworthiness. People do engine swaps. You do have to consider insurance, though, which is also a legal requirement for use on the public highway. General insurers typically won't insure modified cars, but there are specialist insurers that will. As I understand the US is far more lax in its vehicle testing than other places, but this isn't really related to ownership and being able to modify things you own.
      - NullPrefix 2y ago
        >General insurers typically won't insure modified cars, but there are specialist insurers that will. It's illegal to drive without insurance. This effectively means that engine swaps are illegal, unless you are rich enough to afford some special insurance

zenolijo 2y ago

> A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home. Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead. While the battery might be the only thing with a fixed lifetime, other components often also break. I was unlucky and owned a ThinkPad with one soldered on RAM module and one socketed slot to be able to upgrade the RAM, but that didn't help the day that the soldered on RAM died on me.

bux93 2y ago
It's not just price. The market for this expertise is also not very deep and liquid. If I have to get a laptop repaired, what are my choices? Send it off to the manufacturer/importer if it's still under warranty, and get it back in maybe two months. Drop it off at a shop that does also phone repairs and hope they don't wreck it? Realistically I don't know anyone with my specific kind of problem who's used their services before, so I don't really know their reputation. It's not like walking into a supermarket, or even getting a car repaired where you have some sense of the likelihood it will take as long as they say, cost as much as they say and actually succeed. There's much greater information asymmetry. Of course, given how unattractive it is to get something repaired, more people will be inclined to just buy something new, resulting in less demand for repairs, resulting in less supply, less attractive repair market, etc. Repairability (at home, by relative morons) also means more repair shops, because less repairability means death of a repairs market.
- d3nj4l 2y ago
  Apple is actually really fast with repairs. I got my MBP back in about a week when I sent it in under the limited warranty, not even Apple Care.
maiinablegkri 2y ago
>Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead. This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices. Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken wallsocket: >Billed for 100€/hour >Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar, calculating by officially recognized tax administration car wear value 0,59€/km for 5km both ways, so ~6€, 94€ remains >VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70€ >Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%, leaving us with ~57,75€ Now the employee gets 57,75€, out of which following are deducted: >Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15€ >Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1€ >Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6€ So 57,75€ - 23,7€ = ~34€ There are also various single or partial percent taxes that slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single employee.

bkor 2y ago

> Socketed RAM CUDIMM is changeable and fast. > The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature Mostly because people seem to have forgotten that it was possible. Often laptops are slow to due either a too full disk and/or not enough memory. It used to be more common to upgrade those. But apparently that knowledge/skill is forgotten and it's now more custom to buy a new device. Being able to change those saves money IMO.

thowawatp302 2y ago
Nah, personally? I know it’s possible, I’ve done it, and I just do not care anymore. not worth it
- op00to 2y ago
  It's certainly not worth it. I don't think that, for laptops, RAM requirements are increasing nearly as fast as they did 10 years ago. I spec 64GB for my laptops today, and if I could have afforded it, I would have specced 64GB 10 years ago too.
quailfarmer 2y ago
It's faster, but a big reason apple silicon is ahead is because the memory is co-packaged on an MCM. This is the direction things are going.
- bkor 2y ago
  I noticed I made an error when remembering the memory type I saw a while ago. I meant the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module) That's a way to have the memory close, but still being able to change it (without e.g. hot air station or something).
- nottorp 2y ago
  Not sure about that, although having those fixed short traces probably helps with speed, considering the stupid DDR5 negotiation on boot. The real reason however is that going up SoC SKUs at apple gives you more memory channels. Those bandwidth increases you see in specs are because of that, not because the memory is soldered.

myaccountonhn 2y ago

I think it's an attitude worth challenging. The minerals required to build these laptops are limited, and one day we will have to realize this and care for what we own.

simgt 2y ago
Easily swappable components also increase resources consumption. We don't necessary want or need to be able to fix all the parts of our laptops or cars (or shoes!) at home, but we definitely want and need a local professional to be able to do so for a reasonable cost.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
gwbas1c 2y ago
Chips have a limited lifespan too. It doesn't matter if you can swap a module in your laptop, at some point all those chips will need to be recycled.

timewizard 2y ago

Since display technology does not update as fast as CPU technology, and keyboard technology rarely updates anymore at all, you might still expect the entire mainboard assembly to be upgradeable. Would certainly be more "green."

notpushkin 2y ago

For storage in particular, iBoff made an adapter for NAND chips that places them on a carrier board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw The whole setup (allegedly) fits inside original chassis, too, and disk speeds are about the same. So the only real tradeoffs for Apple are cost and the fact that user can swap in third party parts instead of paying obscene prices Apple charges for spec upgrades.

xandrius 2y ago

If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms. Right now, having devices which require both expertise and expensive machinery means that the cost of going to someone to repair it will increase over 10 folds, making a full replacement a financial and sound choice. If my CPU doesn't last for 10 years but I can change it myself in minutes, I would rather that than throwing away everything else I still love and is still functional just for promised extended reliability (which is just a matter of statistics and profit margins at the end of the day).

bartread 2y ago
> If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms. You have to understand though that people like us are a tiny minority. Increasingly I hate creating waste, especially e-waste, and so I'll tinker with things to get them working or upgrade them, but most people don't want the hassle.
- sitkack 2y ago
  I have taught at least three people how to do simple repairs and upgrades on laptops. Anyone that can read and use their brain can strip a laptop down to components and reassemble it.
  - culopatin 2y ago
    Ok, but you’re missing the point and reassuring OPs. Three people might as well be zero.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      It doesn't matter how many people do it as a hobby. Making a repair easier makes professional repair/upgrade cheaper, enabling poorer people to do it, thus decreasing the overall waste dramatically.

masswerk 2y ago

That said, I've a MacPro 3.1 in production (also 17 years now – always up), which is from Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts. Apart from failing 3rd party RAM, no issues ever. – And I'm probably going to upgrade the drives to SSD (still HDD) this year, since you can still get new upgrade parts for its ancient busses. (And for the failing RAM: open the hood, a LED tells you which strip is failing, swap it, close, go on… The build quality is quite amazing, BTW.)

op00to 2y ago
I'm a huge Thinkpad fan. I'm an even bigger MacBook fan. None of my MacBook Pros ever had any issues, and I used my last MacBook for 9 years. I could keep using it with Linux instead of MacOS, but I think almost a decade of use is plenty of value for me. There were recalls and scandals with the MacBook Pro over the years, but nothing that other vendors also didn't see, and that wouldn't have required the same exact parts being replaced. I'm thinking of the GPU issues with certain MacBooks. The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo. I had a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon with the HiDPI screen that was absolutely awful, requiring replacement multiple times. Each time, the moron from Unisys that Lenovo sent to do the on-site repair would return me with a laptop that was poorly reassembled, and with new problems due to the tech's ineptitude. The same dude did service for Lenovo servers, and he once dropped a server that needed a fan replaced on the floor. Talk about fragile. Thinkpads are great, and the oldest ones are still solid to use, but to say that MacBooks are fragile ignores that Thinkpads too are fragile.
- dahauns 2y ago
  >The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo. Sorry, but this is a joke. "any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product"? Give me a break. Apple has been time and again the champion of denying issues with their products until lawsuits forced their hand, often settling without admitting wrongdoing. Bendgate, Batterygate, MBP nVidia, MBP AMD, Butterfly keyboard, just off the top of my head. (Again: My criticism here is about how Apple handled them.) "You're holding it wrong" is a meme for a reason (that didn't result in a lawsuit, though IIRC)

porphyra 2y ago

The physical socket also introduces a new point of failure. In the olden days there was often "ram was bad but taking it out and reseating it in the socket fixed it", which can be avoided by just having it be on the same physical chip.